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Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Post subject: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

I can't find this info anywhere. Any help would be great.

Thanks!

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:38 am
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

From Osprey Vanguard 40 'US Light Tanks 1944-84' by Zaloga:

(not enough remaining M24s)... "and in 1964 the US agreed to re-equip the ARVN armoured cavalry units with M41A3s. These began to arrive in January 1965, and by the end of the year five squadrons had been equipped and trained."

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

Chris:

This doesn’t give the total number of M41A3s received by the Republic of Vietnam, but Simon Dunstan’s Vietnam Tracks has this information in a chart labeled “ARVN Armor Inventory Establishment 1973”:

[ARVN] Armor School: 10 X M41A3s

[ARVN] M41 Tank Squadrons (12 Squadrons): 17 X M41A3s


That gives a total of 214 X M41A3s in the ARVN Inventory in “1973” — or at least the requirement was for 214 X M41A3s. Of course, that would not account for any losses to the M41A3 inventory since 1965 (and there were losses), so theoretically, the numbers of M41A3s received by South Vietnam in that period would be higher than 214.

In a quick search, I couldn’t find any information in Hunnicutt’s Sheridan on the numbers of M41s exported to South Vietnam (or any other country, for that matter).

On a related note — can anyone tell me how many M41 Light Tanks were exported to Pakistan, and when they were shipped? Sources disagree on Pakistani use of M41s: some sources say they had M41s, while other sources say that Pakistan never got M41 Light Tanks (only M24s). However, the existence of an M41 in an Indian museum display of captured Pakistani equipment would seem to indicate M41s did serve with the Pakistani army.

www.bharat-rakshak.com...1.jpg.html

Can anyone help to enlighten me?




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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

The same source (Vanguard 40) only has M24s going to Pakistan, there's no mention of M41s.

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rynoki
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

In 1975 the ARVN still had 13 cav sqn's with M41. This number may include the school as a sqn. No M41's were present in IV Corps and these were supplimented by extra M113's in the sqn.
4 sqn's in I Corps
4 Sqn's in II Corps.
5 Sqn's in III Corps.

Sorry this doesn't give you actual numbers though.
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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

However, the existence of an M41 in an Indian museum display of captured Pakistani equipment would seem to indicate M41s did serve with the Pakistani army


It doesn't indicate anything other than they have a M41 there. Museums are notorious for posting untrue information. The Indians also have several M4A4 Shermans they claim to have captured from Pakistan. Pakistan used M4A1s only. The Indians used M4A1s, M4A3s, and M4A4s. Just because they put up a sign, it doesn't prove anything.
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Buq-Buq
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

Trevor:

Yes, the Zaloga book is one of several works that do not include any information on M41 Light Tanks being exported to Pakistan, and —if it actually happened — you would think he would. Pierangelo Caiti’s Modern Armor (1978) and Jane’s Armour and Artillery 1981-82 likewise do not indicate that Pakistan ever used M41s. On the other hand, Scribner’s Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World (1974) and Jane’s World Armoured Fighting Vehicles (1976), both by Christopher Foss, say that M41s were exported to Pakistan. Additionally, The Indian Armour, the history of the Indian Armored Corps, by Gurcharn Singh Sandhu, says “M41 ‘Walker Bulldog’ tanks were utilised by the Pakistanis as a replacement/substitute for 76-mm Shermans.” But I’ve never heard of a Pakistani source indicating their use of M41s, and I’ve never seen a picture of one in Pakistani service. Which is correct?

tanker2010 (Gary, isn’t it?):

Museums are notorious


I can’t argue with that one!

Just because they put up a sign, it doesn’t prove anything.


That’s true as well; however, I wasn’t looking at the sign so much as the fact that the Indians actually have an M41 in a museum. Like the “M4A4 Shermans” alleged to be of Pakistani origin, the M41 had to have come into their possession from somewhere. More than likely, the M4A4s are simply mis-identified Indian Sherman Vs, as per your implication. Now, I pretty certain that the Indians never received or used M41 Light Tanks, given the sources of their equipment in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. So, if the M41 is not a “mis-identified” Indian Army vehicle, where did it come from? South Vietnam? Thailand? New Zealand? Lebanon? Doubtful; I don’t see evidence of other equipment in Indian museums from these sources, or, for that matter, of South Vietnam or Thailand sharing obsolete military equipment with anyone (except, perhaps, for the case of equipment passing between South Vietnam and North Vietnam). In fact, speaking in general terms, the Post-World War Two items in Indian museums seems to come mainly from two sources: Indian Army inventories, and Pakistani Army inventories. Since I feel pretty secure saying that India didn’t use M41s, that pretty much points towards Pakistan as the source of the M41 in that picture in the above link.

So, can anyone tell me how many M41 Light Tanks were exported to Pakistan, and when they were shipped? Or somehow show me that the Pakistanis never received them?




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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

Since I feel pretty secure saying that India didn’t use M41s, that pretty much points towards Pakistan as the source of the M41 in that picture in the above link.


No, it doesn't at all. Museums trade with others for vehicles all the time. Latrun in Israel has all kinds of vehicles they or their enemies didn't use. To say the source is Pakistan because it's in India and they didn't use them is a bit absurd.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

tanker 2010 (Gary, isn’t it?):

I guess we have a difference of opinion about a tangential subject to my actual question.

I just don’t see the Ahmednagar Cavalry Tank Museum as being big into trading world-wide for tanks to display in their museum, the way that Latrun does, and Saumur, and Bovington. I haven’t seen many pictures lately of the Merkavas and S-Tanks and M60A3s and T-10Ms from their collection — or from any collection, for that matter, in India. My feeling is that the Indians just have other things to be spending their money on.

On the Bharat Rakshak website, there is an image of the inventory of the exhibits of the Ahmednagar Cavalry Tank Museum:

www.bharat-rakshak.com...y.jpg.html

Each of the items on that inventory can be explained as coming from one of three sources: 1) used by the British in India prior to independence and left there on the British withdrawal; 2) served in the Indian Army; or 3) captured by Indian forces during their wars. I don’t see any equipment that does not come from these sources. To my eye, this particular museum wants to display equipment that is relevant to Indian military history.

You would have me accept that there is a source number 4: that the M41 was apparently received in trade from another museum. Why? Why would the museum want an M41 — and only an M41, apparently (since all of the other AFVs can be accounted for in sources 1, 2 & 3 above) — so badly that they would trade for it? And where is the mustered-out Vijayanta that the Indians shipped off to some foreign museum in trade? What world-class museum does their former Vijayanta reside in?



I really didn’t want to have a conversation on whether or not museums have accurate signage, or whether or not tank museums trade stuff back and forth. I really just wanted to find out if someone could verify receipt of M41s by Pakistan, with dates and numbers. Or show me that it never happened. My use of the Ahmednagar Cavalry Tank Museum photo was a way to illustrate the existence of an M41 in India. I believe that the M41 is in that museum because it is “relevant to Indian military history”. Whether it got there via the Pakistani Army Order of Battle or through a trade with another tank museum doesn’t interest me so much as the fact that it is there. So! If you — or anyone else — can help me with my actual question . . . that would be great.



Chris:

Sorry to have hijacked your thread. I hope you have found some answers to your query.

:-/




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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

Thanks guys! I'd already looked through both the Zaloga and Dunston books. I'm just gonna have to use the info from the Duston one based on the date noted.

Thanks again!

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