±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 749
Total: 749
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Photo Gallery
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Your Account
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Your Account
32: Photo Gallery
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Home
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Home
55: Photo Gallery
56: Community Forums
57: Photo Gallery
58: Downloads
59: Photo Gallery
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Your Account
65: Community Forums
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Downloads
70: Downloads
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: CPGlang
74: Photo Gallery
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Photo Gallery
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Home
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Photo Gallery
90: Community Forums
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Photo Gallery
96: Downloads
97: Community Forums
98: Downloads
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Home
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Photo Gallery
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Home
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Photo Gallery
123: Home
124: Home
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: CPGlang
138: Community Forums
139: Photo Gallery
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: CPGlang
150: Community Forums
151: Downloads
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Member Screenshots
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Statistics
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Home
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: Community Forums
183: Member Screenshots
184: Community Forums
185: CPGlang
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Your Account
192: Community Forums
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Photo Gallery
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Photo Gallery
212: Downloads
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Your Account
222: Community Forums
223: News Archive
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Your Account
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Downloads
236: Home
237: Photo Gallery
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Photo Gallery
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Member Screenshots
245: Photo Gallery
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: CPGlang
251: Home
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Your Account
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Photo Gallery
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Photo Gallery
267: Community Forums
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Home
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Photo Gallery
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Home
296: Photo Gallery
297: CPGlang
298: Downloads
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Downloads
303: Photo Gallery
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Home
314: Community Forums
315: Home
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Your Account
319: Home
320: Home
321: Member Screenshots
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Downloads
328: Community Forums
329: CPGlang
330: Community Forums
331: Photo Gallery
332: Downloads
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: CPGlang
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Member Screenshots
343: Community Forums
344: Member Screenshots
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Home
348: Statistics
349: Community Forums
350: Home
351: Photo Gallery
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: CPGlang
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Photo Gallery
364: Photo Gallery
365: CPGlang
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Photo Gallery
370: Photo Gallery
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Your Account
382: Member Screenshots
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: Photo Gallery
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Downloads
393: Downloads
394: Home
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: Community Forums
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Statistics
403: Community Forums
404: Photo Gallery
405: Downloads
406: Community Forums
407: Downloads
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: News
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Member Screenshots
422: Home
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: CPGlang
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Your Account
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Downloads
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Photo Gallery
440: CPGlang
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Photo Gallery
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Member Screenshots
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Member Screenshots
454: Home
455: Community Forums
456: Photo Gallery
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Photo Gallery
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Home
465: Downloads
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Home
469: Downloads
470: Community Forums
471: Photo Gallery
472: Your Account
473: Downloads
474: Photo Gallery
475: Photo Gallery
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Downloads
480: Community Forums
481: Your Account
482: Community Forums
483: Your Account
484: News Archive
485: CPGlang
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Home
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Home
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Downloads
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Photo Gallery
517: Photo Gallery
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Downloads
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Your Account
524: Photo Gallery
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Photo Gallery
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Photo Gallery
537: Photo Gallery
538: Community Forums
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Home
542: Photo Gallery
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Photo Gallery
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Photo Gallery
552: Community Forums
553: Home
554: Member Screenshots
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Your Account
565: Community Forums
566: CPGlang
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Community Forums
572: Photo Gallery
573: Your Account
574: News
575: Community Forums
576: Photo Gallery
577: Home
578: Home
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Photo Gallery
583: Community Forums
584: News
585: Photo Gallery
586: Photo Gallery
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Your Account
600: News
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Photo Gallery
606: Community Forums
607: Downloads
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Home
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Photo Gallery
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Photo Gallery
618: Downloads
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Your Account
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Home
625: Photo Gallery
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Home
633: Home
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Photo Gallery
637: Community Forums
638: CPGlang
639: Photo Gallery
640: Community Forums
641: Downloads
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Photo Gallery
645: News Archive
646: News Archive
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Photo Gallery
652: Community Forums
653: Downloads
654: Your Account
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Home
660: Your Account
661: Photo Gallery
662: Home
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Home
670: Community Forums
671: Home
672: Community Forums
673: Your Account
674: Downloads
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Community Forums
678: Home
679: Community Forums
680: Photo Gallery
681: Community Forums
682: Home
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Home
687: Your Account
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Photo Gallery
692: CPGlang
693: Home
694: Photo Gallery
695: Community Forums
696: Photo Gallery
697: Home
698: Community Forums
699: Your Account
700: Community Forums
701: Community Forums
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Home
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Photo Gallery
709: Community Forums
710: Home
711: Home
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: CPGlang
715: Community Forums
716: Downloads
717: Home
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Photo Gallery
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Downloads
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Downloads
732: Community Forums
733: Home
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Photo Gallery
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Photo Gallery
740: Downloads
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Home
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Question for the Sherman gurus...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:25 am
Post subject: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Apart from the 17 pounder, what are the other (if any) definitive visual characteristics of a "Firefly"? I had thought that the additional flat steel plates in front of the driver and radio/bow gunner were unique to the Firefly, but apparently this is not the case. For Fireflies that had the 17lb. gun changed (or never actually installed) is there a visual cue that says "Yep, that was intended to be, or was at one time, a "Firefly"?

Thx in advance.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

The large box welded to the rear of the turret. Google can be your friend.

www.google.com/images?...25&bih=636
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

They also had a blanked off hull MG mount.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Thanks, I knew this was the place to ask!

What would constitute "blanked off", since many displays don't have a hull MG mounted. Got an example image of what to look for? I see some Google images of reputed fireflies with varying looking mounts.

I "Googled" the firefly and checked the wiki page, but I think our membership is more reliable, frankly.


Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:44 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Dough

Not a Sherman expert, but I will give it a try.

Firefly's where only build on the M4, M4A1, or M4A4 chassis (I'm counting the M4 Composite as a M4). All where VVSS, dry stowage and 75mm hulls and turrets.
From the outside the box on the rear of the turret (where the radios where mounted in) is a give away, only Firefly's had this modification.

Most of the Firefly's used the bow gunners place as extra stowage for ammunition so there was a plate welded over the bow gun. However this is not 100% true for all Firefly's. Here in Belgium there are some (probably) post war rebuild Firefly's without the cover (the one in Leopoldsburg at the railway station for example).

There is ia different gunshield used on the Firefly's, it has a ring of bolts around the gun.

There shoud be a gun lock at the rear off the hull (left from the center).
Example without the plate but with the gun lock
Firefly with all the stuff on

Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:14 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Thanks, Tichenor...that's a big help! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
tankbarrell
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:47 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Fireflies were not built on M4A1.
Back to top
View user's profile
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:35 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- tankbarrell
Fireflies were not built on M4A1

Oops indeed not on M4A1.
I explicid posted Composites are M4's, but somewhere in my mind they keep popping up as M4A1's Confused
And that UK Grizzly with fireflyturret is still chasing me Wink
Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

As Tichenor says, you have to make a distinction between wartime and post-War Fireflies. Really only wartime conversions were true Fireflies but since the war the Firefly turret has appeared on Shermans that would never have converted during the war - particularly in the armies of Italy and Belgium. Text books and websites will describe the main characteristics - the mantlet, turret, blanked-off MG, etc. - and these can be seen in contemporary wartime pictures. However many (most?) surviving Fireflies will contradict these since they have been converted post-war on whatever convenient chassis were available. Occasionally you will even see a Firefly without a 17pdr turret. So overall the definition of what constitutes a Firefly is complicated.

These are the ones I have so far added to PTC - and probably not one is an original authentic wartime Firefly:

Preserved Sherman Firefly tanks

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- TrevorLarkum
However many (most?) surviving Fireflies will contradict these since they have been converted post-war on whatever convenient chassis were available. Occasionally you will even see a Firefly without a 17pdr turret. So overall the definition of what constitutes a Firefly is complicated.


To keep it simple I would suggest to stick the Firefly label to the wartime conversions.

Those converted post-war I would not designate Fireflies, if only because it is unsure whether they were actually converted and used post-war, or cobbled up from available hulls and turrets to put on display in museums and memorials.

Regards,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Hanno, I would tend to agree. However, most collections don't publicise whether their Firefly is wartime or post-war. I think the best approach is to make a judgement based on what can be seen of the authentic Firefly features - hence the Museo Storico dei Carristi example on that linked page above, even though it doesn't have a 17pdr. There always will be grey areas, however, until collections start publishing (caring about?) the histories of their vehicles.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

"Blanked off" is something like this:

data3.primeportal.net/...4_of_7.jpg

data.primeportal.net/t...20(17).JPG

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
claude_GILLONO
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

The loader had a characteristic square turret roof hatch too.
HTH
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:37 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- TrevorLarkum
Hanno, I would tend to agree. However, most collections don't publicise whether their Firefly is wartime or post-war. I think the best approach is to make a judgement based on what can be seen of the authentic Firefly features - hence the Museo Storico dei Carristi example on that linked page above, even though it doesn't have a 17pdr. There always will be grey areas, however, until collections start publishing (caring about?) the histories of their vehicles.


Trevor, we don't need curators' descriptions, they are notoriously bad as they don't wear anoraks like we do Laughing

A Firefly has a 17-pounder gun with all the amenities described above. So if someone re-converted a Sherman Firefly into another configuration, then the tank loses the "Firefly" tag (which is a nickname more than a proper designation, anyway).


HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:14 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

We are walking a thin line here... Assume, just for the sake of the argument, that we have two tanks, one Sherman V and another Sherman V Firefly. Then an insane curator (without anorak!) swap the turrets among the two tanks, no another mods, just turret swap. Do we still have a "Firefly"? If yes, which of the two can be called Firefly?

Of course this is an extreme, unrealistic scenario, but it forces us to think about it.

From what I can see Trevor's stance is "the hull rules", if the hull came from a Firefly, Trevor will flag it as a Firefly, basically, in the scenario above, he will pick the hull.

Any categorization is, by its very own nature, more or less arbitrary. Since Trevor has the need to apply categories to his database, he has to make choices and enforce some rules.

Other may be facing even harder choices, for example, should we put Fireflies among american or british tanks? There no definitive answer to such a question...

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum