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Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:27 pm
Post subject: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

Hello,

Wiml Dirks pointed something out in an email I received some days ago :

Bruce Crompton, who owns a SdKfz 250, a 251 and what is believed to be an original Jagdpanzer 38(t), participated to a reenactment event at Overloon in May 2010.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157623957457977/

Some photos of the interior show the marking "Achtung! Panzerjägerkanone 40 - schiessen ohne Mündungsbremse verboten", which translated, means "Beware! Panzerjäger gun 40 - Fire without the muzzle brake is forbidden"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4615687815/in/set-72157623957457977/

The problem is that German Jagdpanzer 38(t) don't have muzzle brakes, only G-13s have this feature.

Does it mean that the tank is indeed a G-13, or does it rather mean that the interior was restored like a G-13 interior?

Pierre-Olivier

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

I'd say it's a G13, since only G13s have the muzzle brakes, like you say. The German text must have been put on by the Swiss since it's effectively their primary language (whether officially or not).

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

On top of that, original Hetzers had KwK 39 guns, G-13s had StuK 40 guns. So even the number referring to the gun tells it could be a G-13.

But I have to say that usually stencils on swiss tanks are written both in german and french.

I just checked my interior pictures from the G-13 in Schaffhausen, and saw no stencils at all.

I would still hesitate to flag this as G-13. Better put a question mark on it.

Massimo
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WimD.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

Pierre-Olivier's website says the Crompton tank comes from Vilseck, looking at this information and a picture I found somewhere on the internet I do not think it is a Swiss G-13.

Regards,
Wim D.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

- WimD.
Pierre-Olivier's website says the Crompton tank comes from Vilseck, looking at this information and a picture I found somewhere on the internet I do not think it is a Swiss G-13.

Regards,
Wim D.


yes, but the information on my website are not 100% reliable..

P-O

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

He has done a good job on it but after spending the past two hours going through every image I have of these vehicles I think I can safely say it was originally a G13/G13D/G14...

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earlymb
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

Hi all,

I just saw this topic and I might be able to contribute a bit.

I made the pics in the gallery linked in the first post. The marking in question is indeed incorrect for this vehicle. It is an older restoration and I guess that interior photos from an G-13 (possibly from a manual) were used as a reference. According to the Crompton Collection's chief mechanic (who didn't work on the restoration of the Hetzer), some time in the future it is scheduled to have a rebuild which would include a full repaint inside and out along with a full mechanical overhaul. There are several other restorationprojects in the pipeline that come first though, so it might be a while before it's the Hetzers' turn.

That said, this Hetzer is an original 1944 early production vehicle. It was indeed recovered from the Vilseck barracks where it was buried after the war, together with (I think) a Pz IV. It still has battle scars on mainly the right side from small arms fire and shrapnel. It also has most of the features found on early production vehicles (exhaust route, early pattern roadwheels and first pattern drive sprockets).

Greetz Wink

David
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VonForhud
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:15 am
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

Why would someone bury a hetzer and a Mark IV? Lack of fuel?

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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:35 am
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

I wonder if the PzIV being restored in Norfolk is thus Crompton's too?
As to why bury one, well they may have been abandonned due to damage or lack of fuel, then shoved by an allied bulldozer into a bomb hole, to help fill it? Like the Stuart dug up in France a few years ago.
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earlymb
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:16 am
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

- Pzkpfw-e
I wonder if the PzIV being restored in Norfolk is thus Crompton's too?

No it isn't, but I don't know who the owner is.


- Pzkpfw-e
As to why bury one, well they may have been abandonned due to damage or lack of fuel, then shoved by an allied bulldozer into a bomb hole, to help fill it? Like the Stuart dug up in France a few years ago.

That would be the most likely scenario I would say. Although it has lots of battle scars I don't think it got a devasting hit.

Greetz Wink

David
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vmmv1
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

The interior is correct for a Hetzer. might have been incorrectly stenciled. guns, muzzle brakes, cupolas and even turrets can be easily changed and should not be used as the only reference for the model of a particular model of tank.
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:48 am
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

Tobias Haudenschild forwarded me his observations on this tank. I am posting on his behalf:

According to MY knowledge, it has to be a Swiss G-13. Here are my arguments:

The gun as such seems to be a PAK 39. But the horizontal movement of the PAK 39 (in Hetzers) was achieved by a cardan shaft that is completely missing on this particular vehicle. Besides, all handles and mountings for the gun are identical to the G-13's arrangement.

The firing button (on picture 065) was a Swiss modification (in G-13s it was actually red).

The driver's instrument panel is the one used in G-13s. In the Hetzer the display for water temperature was located on the far left of the panel.

A clear identification could be achieved by checking wheter the vehicle has an escape hatch on the floor of the fighting compartment, as only Swiss G-13s had this hatch...

You were actually right that Swiss G-13s were marked both in German and French on the interior. For sure the interior markings shown in the pictures are not of Swiss origin. They might be an invention of the vehicle's owner.

Altogether I have to say that it is a very fine G-13 to Hetzer conversion that features a lot of details that makes it look like an original Hetzer.


Massimo
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Andreas
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

Hi all

The first restoration from the Crompton Jagdpanzer 38 in Germany
www.warbirds.de/conten...8t.Hetzer/

The Vilseck Pzkpfw IV--Restoration(?) Wheatcroft now the tank stands in the IWM Duxford

Andreas
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earlymb
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:41 am
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

- Andreas
Hi all

The first restoration from the Crompton Jagdpanzer 38 in Germany
www.warbirds.de/conten...8t.Hetzer/
Andreas

This is not the Crompton Hetzer according to the Collection's chief mechanic , but perhaps it is one of Wheatcrofts' vehicles?

It could very well be that G-13 interior pictures or manuals and even some parts were (incorrectly) used in or as a reference during the restoration, what would explain the presence of some G-13 parts/details. It does not have an escape hatch.

Greetz Wink

David
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Andreas
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:36 am
Post subject: Re: Jagdpanzer 38(t) with G-13 markings???

Hello David

"This is not the Crompton Hetzer according to the Collection's chief mechanic "........but it looks very (very) similar!!


Andreas
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