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JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:42 am
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- bsmart

I wonder if the travel lock on the rear deck will work with the 152mm?


I was just looking at the travel lock - then went through my available images to check it against what I had but haven't got a clear enough image to check - hasn't it got an extra link in it?

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:47 am
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- JimWeb
- bsmart

I wonder if the travel lock on the rear deck will work with the 152mm?


I was just looking at the travel lock - then went through my available images to check it against what I had but haven't got a clear enough image to check - hasn't it got an extra link in it?

Cool


M60a2's did not come equipped with an external travel lock. I doubt the one on the M48 would fit the barrel anyway.
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:15 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

what are those balls that look like trailer hitches??
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CaptCav
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

Nahhhh..... that's just a "Plain Jane" M-48A1 travel lock.

BTW - looking at that exhaust/muffler on the rear deck brings back fond memories. In 1956, I was riding in the bustle rack on my dad's M-48A1 at Graf. The -A1 had a weird quirk (which I didn't know about). If you allowed the tank to coast down hill and then stomped on the accelerator - there was a stupendous roar and a huge sheet of flame would leap out of the exhaust (after all, these were GAS burners, lol). I happened to look down, just as that flame roared out. Shocked Needless to say, ole Hankie needed to change his drawers at that point!!! Ahhhh....... the good old daze!!!

ArmyJunk2...... those were the mounting points for the Xenon searchlight. However, when I was a young tank platoon leader; my platoon sergeant was known to tell gullible FNGs (straight outta AIT) those were the tank's male reproductive organs. Razz
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:47 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- CaptCav
Nahhhh..... that's just a "Plain Jane" M-48A1 travel lock.

BTW - looking at that exhaust/muffler on the rear deck brings back fond memories. In 1956, I was riding in the bustle rack on my dad's M-48A1 at Graf. The -A1 had a weird quirk (which I didn't know about). If you allowed the tank to coast down hill and then stomped on the accelerator - there was a stupendous roar and a huge sheet of flame would leap out of the exhaust (after all, these were GAS burners, lol). I happened to look down, just as that flame roared out. Shocked Needless to say, ole Hankie needed to change his drawers at that point!!! Ahhhh....... the good old daze!!!


Oh yes Dragontails. they would also occur if the tank didn't start right away and raw gas flooded through the engine and exhaust. I know I have bored this group with the story about an M-48A1 that was parked with it's rear near the maintenance tent when a dragontail split the dusk and caught the side f the tent Rolling Eyes

Oh I just got home and checked Hunnicutt M48 & M60 had 85" Turret Rings. The M47 had a 73" ring and the M4, M26, & M46 had 69" rings. Those are all inside diameters

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CaptCav
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:53 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

Doug_Kibbey...... here's a better pic of the hull/turret fit.

www.odkrywca.pl/forum_...agh_05.jpg

As I remember, it's one of the first M-60A2s. Geezzzzz..... is that a REMF tank or what??!! It has a little ladder on the front slope. Laughing
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:06 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- CaptCav
Doug_Kibbey...... here's a better pic of the hull/turret fit.

www.odkrywca.pl/forum_...agh_05.jpg

As I remember, it's one of the first M-60A2s. Geezzzzz..... is that a REMF tank or what??!! It has a little ladder on the front slope. Laughing


No its the M60A1E1...

Anyone remember the Tamiya model?

Cool

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:14 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

Hi everyone,

To bad non of the Franken-Tank pictures got posted this weekend when I was home. I cannot view them right now.

This is gonna be a little long,

Right now I still believe this tank is just a cobbled up creation, not a purpose built special/rare tank. I believe this because it is on an M48/48A1 "Gasoline" powered hull. Probably the last thing you would use to sell/test this "XM48A4E1" vehicle Jim mentions. M60A2 turret production started in May of 1966, by then Diesels were the in thing and M48's were being converted to A3's by the hundreds. Only about 300 were made with Generation 3 hulls before work was halted due to Major problems with the turret. It wasn't until 1973 that the first retrofitted tank was delivered. All remaining M60A2's made were equipped with Generation 4 hulls (That's what was being made by then). Another thing to consider is even if they mounted the A2 turret on a 48 hull, you would need to extend the rear hull for the Closed Breech Scavange System. I guess you could put an electric air compressor in the turret to avoid this like the Sheridens had but where would you put it? You'd also would have to cut the turret platform to fit the hull since the turret platform, although having the same ring diameter, hangs lower than the M48's. The A2 turret is completely different than the A1/A3 where you just can't lop off the bottom and raise it without seriously changing many of the internal components to fit. This raises the question, why? Especially since you already have M60 hulls purpose built for the A2 turret. There never was any complaints on the Hull, all the problems were turret related. I can understand the ROC using the A2 turret for shore defense, the range of the missle being very deadly against ships and landing craft. I'm with Doug, not saying it don't exist, stranger things have turned up, I'd just love to see a picture or documentation of this tank.

About the program to equip old M60 turrets on M48's, yes, it was a very serious consideration at one time. The plan was to start producing M60A2's with converted M60 hulls. My reseach so far leads me to conclude that the Army planned to build 600 new M60A2's and then produce later tanks using the old M60 hulls. Serial numbers 4426 to 5025 were designated for these new A2's. This was back in the 60's before the whole project ran into all it's problems. By the time the system got back on track in '73 the project was no longer viable, since they didn't plan on making more than 600, that was later reduced to 540. The new stop gap solution was the M48A5. BTW, the US M48A4 (M48A3 hull with M60 turret) used the M19 Cupola, a very obvious ID feature.

Jim, I would not doubt some CM-11's have old M60A2 hulls. IIRC they puchased complete hulls from us and there would be no reason not to have some A2 hulls that were upgraded for AVLB's not used to be included in that lot. Look for the very obvious CBSS bulge, lower grill overhang and Square tailight gaurds.

Joe D
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:20 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- JimWeb
- CaptCav
Doug_Kibbey...... here's a better pic of the hull/turret fit.

www.odkrywca.pl/forum_...agh_05.jpg

As I remember, it's one of the first M-60A2s. Geezzzzz..... is that a REMF tank or what??!! It has a little ladder on the front slope. Laughing


No its the M60A1E1...


Cool


And the turret/hull relationship differs from the M60A2 on those in what way, Jim?

- Armyjunk
what are those balls that look like trailer hitches??

The searchlight ball thing was answered on page three, AJ...and there's a good picture of one mounted there as well. The disinctive turret shape is less apparent when the light is mounted. The searchlight was mounted on a separate shaft that exited on the turret left that was slaved to the gun trunnion. You can see the assembly without the light very clearly in this view:


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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:38 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- armyjunk2
what are those balls that look like trailer hitches??


Hi AJ...
BTW, there should be a set of those hitch balls on this assembly as well, but they're missing. This is the stowage rack for the searchlight when not mounted. You'll see a similar assembly variously on M48's, M60's & M60A1's on and around the turret bustle when the searchlight isn't mounted over the main gun. It wasn't over the main gun on the M60A2 because that would interfere with the missile transmitter/receiver unit (that's what was in that box over the gun).
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:44 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

thank you all
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:02 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- Doug_Kibbey


And the turret/hull relationship differs from the M60A2 on those in what way, Jim?



Jeez Doug even my wife spotted that one - the ladder on the front was only fitted to the M60A1E1 (based on M60 Hull) It was removed for the M60A1E1 APE and the M60A1E2 (based on M60A1 hull).

Information gleaned from Hunnicutt..

Cool

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:08 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- JimWeb
- Doug_Kibbey


And the turret/hull relationship differs from the M60A2 on those in what way, Jim?



Jeez Doug even my wife spotted that one - the ladder on the front was only fitted to the M60A1E1 (based on M60 Hull) It was removed for the M60A1E1 APE and the M60A1E2 (based on M60A1 hull).

Information gleaned from Hunnicutt..

Cool


Yes, but the question was turret/hull relationship, not the significance of the ladder. The point here was illuminating this relationship, not making a point of sharpshooting CaptCav, since I have to spell it out for you. Wink
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:20 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- Joe_D

Right now I still believe this tank is just a cobbled up creation, not a purpose built special/rare tank. I believe this because it is on an M48/48A1 "Gasoline" powered hull. Probably the last thing you would use to sell/test this "XM48A4E1" vehicle Jim mentions.


You have to remember that the ROC had and still has a lot of M48/M48A1 though some have been upgraded engine-wise the majority still retain the original engines.


Another thing to consider is even if they mounted the A2 turret on a 48 hull, you would need to extend the rear hull for the Closed Breech Scavange System. I guess you could put an electric air compressor in the turret to avoid this like the Sheridens had but where would you put it? You'd also would have to cut the turret platform to fit the hull since the turret platform, although having the same ring diameter, hangs lower than the M48's. The A2 turret is completely different than the A1/A3 where you just can't lop off the bottom and raise it without seriously changing many of the internal components to fit. This raises the question, why? Especially since you already have M60 hulls purpose built for the A2 turret. There never was any complaints on the Hull, all the problems were turret related.


I suspect you answered your own question here and agin the ROC had a lot of (then) M48 with 90mm guns - it would have been a cheap way of upgrading their tanks.


I can understand the ROC using the A2 turret for shore defense, the range of the missle being very deadly against ships and landing craft. I'm with Doug, not saying it don't exist, stranger things have turned up, I'd just love to see a picture or documentation of this tank.


I suspect that they bought a load of M60A2 and got some US company to conduct a feasability study before abandoning the idea, rusing the hulls for CM11 and relegating the turrets to fortifications.

I may be able to help with an image in a couple of weeks.


Jim, I would not doubt some CM-11's have old M60A2 hulls. IIRC they puchased complete hulls from us and there would be no reason not to have some A2 hulls that were upgraded for AVLB's not used to be included in that lot. Look for the very obvious CBSS bulge, lower grill overhang and Square tailight gaurds.


I'll keep my eyes open - I'm hoping to receive a batch of CM11 images from ROC HQ sometime soon - promised but usually very slow delivering apparently as they have to be cleared & authorised by nearly everyone in Taiwan...

Cool

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:42 pm
Post subject: Re: JoeD's Frankenstein (M48A5/M60A2)

- CaptCav
Nahhhh..... that's just a "Plain Jane" M-48A1 travel lock.

That is what I thought. Another point in the 'slap a turret on an existing hull' column


ArmyJunk2...... those were the mounting points for the Xenon searchlight. However, when I was a young tank platoon leader; my platoon sergeant was known to tell gullible FNGs (straight outta AIT) those were the tank's male reproductive organs. Razz


Nooo A Professional NCO wouldn't take advantage of a young troop something like that would they Rolling Eyes Now if it was a 2LT Twisted Evil There was a night on the Langley Flightline that we convinced a new LT that we were Draining the F-15s radiators Mr. Green

Young troops were fair game for being sent for 2 yards of flightline or a gallon of propwash. Rolling Eyes Of course there was the time a new guy came back in the shop with a 5 gallon can of Propeller Cleaner the C-130 outfit on the otherside of base gave him and told him they didn't have a smaller container and that it would start deteriorating if it was opened before use. He carried that can the whole 1.5 miles back to our shop in August weather like we had at Aberdeen last week Surprised Someone wanted to tell him it was portside propwash and to go back and get the starboard propwash but the shop chief put a stop to it

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