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M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

- Neil_Baumgardner
Joe,
Not to divert from a good enigma... But I have an M60 SN question. If it ends in an A its the Anniston Army Depot rebuild SN... What if it ends in an M???

Neil


Neil,

could be Mainz, but that's just a SWAG.

Cheers,

Jens O.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:02 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

- Joe_D
Hi Jeff, Neil,
Here is the million dollar question,,,,,. I am only tracking two other M60A0's with a supposed serial number below 15. I'm saying supposed because the other two examples (Aberdeen, Thurmont) serial numbers are based on a number Bob found on the front slope that isn't a known location for them and an information sheet Neil has that is put out by the Aberdeen Museum. No actual number has been seen in the traditional area (Left Tow Lug or Left Rear hull below deck) to my knowledge.


Were the first 15 made with bad armor never numbered as the operational ones were and possibly those started with Dot 1 ?????


Maybe this Dot 10 isn't so special or they did a really good job of grinding off the "Training Tank Only" Weld. The answer might be found if we could gain access to the Data Plate of the Aberdeen or Thurmont M60A0's.


Something to ponder,
Joe D


Something else i just noticed looking back at this thread

The registration of the '10' tank is 9B3093 (from a good side shot a couple pages back)

The registration of Thurmont (s/n 13 from the tow lug and rear deck) is 9B3096

I think that gives some comfirmation to it truely being s/n 10. It will be interesting if I can get a registration number and serial number off the Aberdeen tank for confirmation that they are done sequentually

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:32 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Hmm... I have in my notes that the APG M60A0's RN is 9B3102 (from a rough museum document)... But that would seem to indicate it is SN 19... Next time I am up there... Which may or may not be before March 31...

Neil
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:14 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Man, you guys have me all pumped up on this M60A0, "Slick 60" as I like to call it. I made yet another trip to it today and got the following pictures of the muzzle, tube in and out, rear turret areas, and even the belly. The muzzle has the bore-sight markings and the barrel does look to be smooth the entire length of it's inside, as I took another "inside" shot. Any other oddities that people can pick out from these pictures? The first picture is of a rifled M60A3 muzzle for reference.

Also, there is a very distinct, (maybe not so much in these photos) "smooth" area where I'm betting the words "Training Tank Only" were located just above the white star on the glacis. It matches the size and location of the photo previously posted in this thread as an example of what to look for.
I'm a one man CSI down here and you all are my "LAB" experts. Analyze these photo's and tell me what we've got!



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bsmart
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:01 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Jeff I agree about the smooth area on the bow. For me it was most visible looking at the shot from the left side. Good work!

Th egun is interesting. If my 'demill' theory was true I would expect it to only be smooth for maybe a foot back from the muzzle. I guess the next step would be to measure the thickness of the barrel walls and compare to a 'normal' 105, even measuring at several points to see if the bore is centered. Also what is the bore diameter of the barrel compared to the normal 105 (across both lands and grooves)

Did I get the registration number right? On the Thurmont M60 it is on the left side just below the headlight.

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Bob, I have looked all over for a "JJ" number of the like, on the front glacis/hull. I have found nothing. But the number on the side 9B3093 seems to be accurate if it matches correspondingly with yours in Thurmont.
I have found the following on the M68 gun;
The 105mm gun M68 was a license-produced version of Britain's L7 gun, but was fitted with an eccentric bore evacuator instead of a concentric model in order to provide more clearance over the rear deck.

I found this on the tank in general;
Fifteen of the earliest M60s produced had insufficiently thick hull armor, and were therefore used by the Armor School as training tanks.

M60A1's had a thermal shield added to the tube;
The M68 gun tube was also wrapped in a thermal shield to prevent barrel droop due to temperature imbalances.

The difference between M60 and M60A1 gun mounts ( this Slick 60 has the M116 mount);
M60: M116 mount. M60A1: M140 mount

I found this on M60A0 models;
M60 (NSN 2350-00-678-5773)
1960 "Tank, Combat, Full Tracked: 105-MM Gun, M60".
Original production model. A total of 2,205 M60s were built.
Stereoscopic rangefinder.
Mechanical brake system.
Steering wheel.

I can't find "squat" on a smooth-bore M68 cannon, let alone an M60 with such cannon. I agree however that it seems awefully expensive and time consuming to "bore-out" the rifleing as oppossed to simply welding in an end cap. I'm stumped here, HELP!

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Man, you guys have me all pumped up on this M60A0, "Slick 60" as I like to call it. I made yet another trip to it today and got the following pictures of the muzzle, tube in and out, rear turret areas, and even the belly. The muzzle has the bore-sight markings and the barrel does look to be smooth the entire length of it's inside, as I took another "inside" shot.


Go back with a ruler and measure the bore very carefully. Also really peer down the bore and make sure there is no micro-rifling in the initial 1/3rd of the barrel.

Cool

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:43 am
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Nice work Jeff,
If this was a tube deemed unserviceable it still should measure 105mm's. I'm still thinking that's the case, that's why they never rifled it with the "Broaches" they use for making the groves. Jim's suggestion is sound but if you can sign out a dial gauge like what we use to measure the inside diameter's of cylinders on an engine it would be much better. Auto-Zone has a loan a tool deal if you feel so inclined. Here's a diagram of where tube and breech numbers are located,



Now I have another question, Has anyone looked to see if the Thurmont and Aberdeen Tank's Gun Tube's are Rifled????. All the pictures I have of them don't show the muzzel well enough to see. I also have pictures of the "Training Tank Only" at the Intrepid museum but it has a muzzel plug on it. Be ineteresting to know but I'm betting they are Rifled.

Send us data Jeff, We'll interpet it (Hopefully accurately).


Joe D
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:46 am
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Joe, what are SNs that end in M?

Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:29 am
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Opps,
Sorry Jens and Neil. It means Mainz Army Depot just as Jens said. My records show 458 M60A1's were converted there to A3's. All examples I've seen started in the 4000's.

Joe D
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:41 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

I've never seen a serial ending in "M". I'm afraid this "Slick 60" smooth-bore will have to wait till I return from Ft Eustis, (around 15 April). I'm just too busy to get back to her till then. I was able to get all these pictures here recently because I'm taking a week of leave prior to going to ANCOC. So Far I've documented 12 M60's, and 9 of 11 M4's. I hope to get the serials for the final 3 M4's and a confirmation on the M36B1 tomorrow morning. After that, I'll be through here for a while. I will try to continue posting from Ft Eustis though.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Dont feel left out Jeff - I only have four M60 Mainz rebuilds listed in the register...

Looking forward to your visit!

Neil
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I've never seen a serial ending in "M". I'm afraid this "Slick 60" smooth-bore will have to wait till I return from Ft Eustis, (around 15 April). I'm just too busy to get back to her till then. I was able to get all these pictures here recently because I'm taking a week of leave prior to going to ANCOC. So Far I've documented 12 M60's, and 9 of 11 M4's. I hope to get the serials for the final 3 M4's and a confirmation on the M36B1 tomorrow morning. After that, I'll be through here for a while. I will try to continue posting from Ft Eustis though.


Driving or Flying...??
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

I still do not know if I'm flying or driving the 1,494 miles in my POV. My orders are still in the wind at III CORP awaiting approval! If I POV, I'll be leaving very early Saturday morning. I report Monday the 5th and class starts Tuesday the 6th. I'm sure a PT test will be conducted before the close of that week as well, (though I'm not worried about that). I've had this paperwork in for a while now and it's aprt of the reason I have to stop my museum visits and start beating on doors for my orders. POVing will allow me to bring alot more gear than if I fly.
I'm may have to put off the interior tank visits till Thursday if my orders aren't in ASAP.
If you think you're looking forward to my visit, multiply that by 100 and you'll have how much I look forward to seeing APG and you guys!!! If I do get to POV, I'll be bringing some of my work with me for you to look at.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 at Ft Hood for Joe D...

Jeff,
Bob raised a good question on another thread - the RN 9B3093 is painted on the side, did you find that stamped on it anywhere?

Neil
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