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Preserved Tanks in Brazil
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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vmmv1
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:35 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

The Stuarts that were in the private collection have been sold and are now spread around Europe and the UK. I can post some pictures of when I moved them if anyone is interested. Marc
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:54 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

I'm back.

- vmmv1
The Stuarts that were in the private collection have been sold and are now spread around Europe and the UK. I can post some pictures of when I moved them if anyone is interested. Marc


Absolutely! Any information and pictures much appreciated.

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

- Massimo_Foti
- Doug_Kibbey

BTW, with regard to tracking all these vehicles in Brazil, be aware that at least as recently as 2005 or so, there was an individual there that privately owned quite a number of former government Stuarts and other vehicles...


I think you are referring to this:
www.militarytrader.com...iscovered/

One of the tank end up in Switzerland:
www.flickr.com/photos/...4249113513

At least another one is in England:
www.flickr.com/photos/...6270470716


Since getting back from holiday I've been working on identifying and tracking down the Stuarts from Brazil, starting with the two highlighted by Massimo (see the relevant country threads). In addition I have identified and partly tracked another 10 or so. I have updated the two locations with information and pictures from a correspondent in Brazil, Paulo Bidoli:

Itupeva

Bragan├ža Paulista



- more details to follow on the other Stuarts

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:25 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

My trip to Brazil has been brought forward so I'll soon be off the forum for a week.

- the_shadock
Trevor,

I would be glad to get some photos from you if you are lucky enough to get access to the tanks during your visit (most of them are located on military bases).

I would be curious to get photos from the Sherman tanks too, especially from small hatches versions.

P-O


P-O, I'll bear that in mind. If I get to any military bases, though, I only expect to be able to take photos from outside the perimeter.

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

I'm back from Brazil. I had a good time at the Linhares museum (350 photos), but was less successful at the army bases. At the first base we had a fairly unfriendly reception. At the second one we were nearly arrested, so decided to cut our losses and not visit any more bases! To finish we went to Sao Goncales to photograph the Lee in the public park.

I'll put all the pictures online as soon as I get the chance.

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

Please note that "EB 11025" is a Stuart that comes from Brazil and is noiw part of the ASPHM association. Its serial number is 9995 (I was able to check it myself during a visit of the collection) :

http://www.asphm.com/projets/projet_m3a1_stuart_2/projet_m3a1_stuart.html

P-O

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

- the_shadock
Please note that "EB 11025" is a Stuart that comes from Brazil and is noiw part of the ASPHM association. Its serial number is 9995 (I was able to check it myself during a visit of the collection) :

http://www.asphm.com/projets/projet_m3a1_stuart_2/projet_m3a1_stuart.html

P-O


Thanks for that, I'll follow that up soon.

In the meantime the first pictures from my Brazil trip are online (68 pictures, 4 tanks):


Unique ID 860: L3-35, Linhares

Unique%20ID%201053:%20Renault%20FT,%20Linhares Unique%20ID%201815:%20M3%20Stuart,%20Linhares Unique%20ID%201733:%20M3A3%20Lee,%20Linhares [img]http:///PreservedTanks.com/Albums/American/1250-M3%20Lee%23Grant/IMG-6224_M3Lee_Linhares_AArchive_c.jpg[/img]

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

- TrevorLarkum
I'm back from Brazil. I had a good time at the Linhares museum (350 photos), but was less successful at the army bases. At the first base we had a fairly unfriendly reception. At the second one we were nearly arrested, so decided to cut our losses and not visit any more bases! To finish we went to Sao Goncales to photograph the Lee in the public park.

I'll put all the pictures online as soon as I get the chance.


Trevor,
I'm sorry to hear that, but not really surprised, either. IME, there is a general paranoia about foreign visitors to military bases there and success is usually only realized if you have a connection at or near the very top (like the post CO) usually as a result of a referral from a current or former military contact. (I was married to a local and only got in when a retired officer and prominent local citizen greased the skids for us on a later visit...then everything was possible) This extends to even antique displays essentially on the the outskirts of the bases, of no possible security significance.

If you have occasion to visit Chile at some point, cameras are viewed with great suspicion at or near military installations as well. Oddly enough, you'd probably have a better chance in Colombia, though you can expect some thorough questioning and inspection, for understandable reasons.
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

- Doug_Kibbey
Trevor,
I'm sorry to hear that, but not really surprised, either. IME, there is a general paranoia about foreign visitors to military bases there and success is usually only realized if you have a connection at or near the very top (like the post CO) usually as a result of a referral from a current or former military contact. (I was married to a local and only got in when a retired officer and prominent local citizen greased the skids for us on a later visit...then everything was possible) This extends to even antique displays essentially on the the outskirts of the bases, of no possible security significance.

If you have occasion to visit Chile at some point, cameras are viewed with great suspicion at or near military installations as well. Oddly enough, you'd probably have a better chance in Colombia, though you can expect some thorough questioning and inspection, for understandable reasons.


The odd thing was that, according to my driver/guide, my request to take the photographs was absolutely impossible on a Saturday or Sunday, but 'would have been fine any other day of the week'! - unless I simply misunderstood what he said.


Meanwhile, I've added some more pictures and info:


Unique ID 1390: M4 HST, Linhares

Unique%20ID%201514:%20M5%20HST,%20Linhares If%20anyone%20can%20identify%20the%20artillery%20pieces%20being%20towed%20by%20the%20M4%20and%20M5%20that%20would%20be%20appreciated,%20it's%20not%20my%20forte%20(as%20usual,%20click%20through%20for%20more%20photos). Unique%20ID%201595:%20M4A1,%20Linhares P.-O.,%20I'm%20afraid%20this%20is%20the%20only%20Sherman%20I%20saw%20during%20my%20trip,%20and%20I%20didn't%20manage%20to%20find%20a%20serial%20number%20on%20it. Unique%20ID%201727:%20M41B,%20Linhares To%20give%20background%20to%20the%20M41B%20I%20have%20written%20up%20Bernardini,%20the%20upgraders: Location%2037580:%20Bernardini,%20Sao%20Paulo

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

- TrevorLarkum


The odd thing was that, according to my driver/guide, my request to take the photographs was absolutely impossible on a Saturday or Sunday, but 'would have been fine any other day of the week'! - unless I simply misunderstood what he said.



I think the dynamic is basically that it's always safer to say "No", unless you're the boss, because nobody is going to chew your enlisted or junior officer butt out for being cautious, whereas there is no upside to saying "Yes"...the only thing that can happen is that maybe they won't get into trouble. I know you're a seasoned traveler, but I generally always had the advantage of some local work or scientific/medical colleagues who both always spoke the local language and sometimes "knew a guy who knew a guy".

It took me three tries to get in at the 5th RCC in Rio Negro. Twice to get into the MkIV at Bucharest and once to get a personal tour of Parola by the commandant. Each time was due to a local contact who made some calls. The offer of any museum or library gift items you can exchange doesn't hurt either.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

- TrevorLarkum

Unique ID 1595: M4A1, Linhares




P.-O., I'm afraid this is the only Sherman I saw during my trip, and I didn't manage to find a serial number on it.


Trevor,

this M4A1 was not manufactured by Pressed Steel Car, as stated on Preservedtanks.com, but by Pacific Car & Foundry. Here is a clear way to identify this tank as being a PCF-made tank :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/manufacturer/m4a1_pcf.html

You can see that this M4A1 has all the items that make it a tank built by Pacific Car & Foundry.

P-O

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valls
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

If anyone can identify the artillery pieces being towed by the M4 and M5 that would be appreciated, it's not my forte (as usual, click through for more photos).


Both are Vickers Armstrong 7.2 in howitzers used by Brasilan Army heavy artillery units.

JAValls
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

- the_shadock
Trevor,

this M4A1 was not manufactured by Pressed Steel Car, as stated on Preservedtanks.com, but by Pacific Car & Foundry. Here is a clear way to identify this tank as being a PCF-made tank :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/manufacturer/m4a1_pcf.html

You can see that this M4A1 has all the items that make it a tank built by Pacific Car & Foundry.

P-O


Many thanks. Pressed Steel was the only M4A1 manufacturer in my database so it defaulted to that manufacturer, and I was not able to tell the difference myself. I've updated the entry (thanks too to your Sherman Minutia website):

Unique ID 1595: Linhares PCF M4A1

I've also added an additional photo that highlights the lifting eyes and tail light guards.

Can we go any further with the detective work? I'm tempted to suggest that the turret markings ("PSF 11/44") indicate that the turret was manufactured by Pittsburgh Steel Foundry in November 1944. However, that would appear to contradict Kurt's foundry symbols PDF which suggests that 'PSF' was used in place of a star symbol from ca 1952. It would also imply that this turret was manufactured some time after the tank and retrofitted (perhaps by the Brazilians).

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

- TrevorLarkum
Many thanks. Pressed Steel was the only M4A1 manufacturer in my database so it defaulted to that manufacturer, and I was not able to tell the difference myself. I've updated the entry (thanks too to your Sherman Minutia website):

Unique ID 1595: Linhares PCF M4A1

I've also added an additional photo that highlights the lifting eyes and tail light guards.

Can we go any further with the detective work? I'm tempted to suggest that the turret markings ("PSF 11/44") indicate that the turret was manufactured by Pittsburgh Steel Foundry in November 1944. However, that would appear to contradict Kurt's foundry symbols PDF which suggests that 'PSF' was used in place of a star symbol from ca 1952. It would also imply that this turret was manufactured some time after the tank and retrofitted (perhaps by the Brazilians).


Trevor,

according to Joe DeMarco, it is possible that PCF transitioned from "blocky" lifting rings to regular cast lifting rings in January or February 1943. If it is true, the tank located at Linhares was manufactured between January and November 1943, we could exclude a manufacture of that tank in 1942.

The turret is not original to that thank. It is a "high bustle" turret (part number D78461), usually found on large hatches M4A3(75) W. You can see a description of this particular turrets there :
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/turret_types/turret_types.html

This turret was either placed on the tank during wartime, or maybe after the war by the Brazilians, for an unknown reason, but it is not the turret the tank had when it left the factory.

Indeed, this turret was built by PSF in Novembre 1944. I think that there is a typo in Kurt's "foundry markings PDF file". I've already seen Sherman turrets with similar markings, and dated 8-43, or 6-43. Here is an example :


P-O

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Brazil

Another quick note :

the cast lifting rings that can be seen on the tank at Linhares are not characteristic of PCF-made M4A1s.

Only the "blocky" lifting rings found on earlier PCF-made tanks are particular to Pacific Car & Foundry, here is an example :
The%20later%20\"cast\"%20lifting%20rings%20can%20be%20seen%20on%20other%20manufacturer\"s%20tanks,%20like%20on%20Chrysler-made%20M4A4s,%20M4A3s%20and%20M4s%20for%20example%20:

so this is not a distinctive feature of a PCF-made tank. However, this is a distinctive featuer of a later PCF-made tank, given that the "blocky" lifting rings were probably replaced by the cast lifting rings in January or February 1943.

P-O

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