±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: nbrich1
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6596

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 105
Total: 105
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Photo Gallery
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: News
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Home
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Home
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Photo Gallery
43: Photo Gallery
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Photo Gallery
52: Downloads
53: CPGlang
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Photo Gallery
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Photo Gallery
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Photo Gallery
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Downloads
82: Photo Gallery
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
toadmanstankpictures
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Post subject: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

I can't find this info anywhere. Any help would be great.

Thanks!

_________________
Chris "toadman" Hughes
www.toadmanstankpictures.com
www.cafepress.com/toad...ksandstuff
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 15, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:38 am
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

From Osprey Vanguard 40 'US Light Tanks 1944-84' by Zaloga:

(not enough remaining M24s)... "and in 1964 the US agreed to re-equip the ARVN armoured cavalry units with M41A3s. These began to arrive in January 1965, and by the end of the year five squadrons had been equipped and trained."

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

Chris:

This doesn’t give the total number of M41A3s received by the Republic of Vietnam, but Simon Dunstan’s Vietnam Tracks has this information in a chart labeled “ARVN Armor Inventory Establishment 1973”:

[ARVN] Armor School: 10 X M41A3s

[ARVN] M41 Tank Squadrons (12 Squadrons): 17 X M41A3s


That gives a total of 214 X M41A3s in the ARVN Inventory in “1973” — or at least the requirement was for 214 X M41A3s. Of course, that would not account for any losses to the M41A3 inventory since 1965 (and there were losses), so theoretically, the numbers of M41A3s received by South Vietnam in that period would be higher than 214.

In a quick search, I couldn’t find any information in Hunnicutt’s Sheridan on the numbers of M41s exported to South Vietnam (or any other country, for that matter).

On a related note — can anyone tell me how many M41 Light Tanks were exported to Pakistan, and when they were shipped? Sources disagree on Pakistani use of M41s: some sources say they had M41s, while other sources say that Pakistan never got M41 Light Tanks (only M24s). However, the existence of an M41 in an Indian museum display of captured Pakistani equipment would seem to indicate M41s did serve with the Pakistani army.

www.bharat-rakshak.com...1.jpg.html

Can anyone help to enlighten me?




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 15, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

The same source (Vanguard 40) only has M24s going to Pakistan, there's no mention of M41s.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
rynoki
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Posts: 116
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

In 1975 the ARVN still had 13 cav sqn's with M41. This number may include the school as a sqn. No M41's were present in IV Corps and these were supplimented by extra M113's in the sqn.
4 sqn's in I Corps
4 Sqn's in II Corps.
5 Sqn's in III Corps.

Sorry this doesn't give you actual numbers though.
Back to top
View user's profile
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 19, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

However, the existence of an M41 in an Indian museum display of captured Pakistani equipment would seem to indicate M41s did serve with the Pakistani army


It doesn't indicate anything other than they have a M41 there. Museums are notorious for posting untrue information. The Indians also have several M4A4 Shermans they claim to have captured from Pakistan. Pakistan used M4A1s only. The Indians used M4A1s, M4A3s, and M4A4s. Just because they put up a sign, it doesn't prove anything.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

Trevor:

Yes, the Zaloga book is one of several works that do not include any information on M41 Light Tanks being exported to Pakistan, and —if it actually happened — you would think he would. Pierangelo Caiti’s Modern Armor (1978) and Jane’s Armour and Artillery 1981-82 likewise do not indicate that Pakistan ever used M41s. On the other hand, Scribner’s Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World (1974) and Jane’s World Armoured Fighting Vehicles (1976), both by Christopher Foss, say that M41s were exported to Pakistan. Additionally, The Indian Armour, the history of the Indian Armored Corps, by Gurcharn Singh Sandhu, says “M41 ‘Walker Bulldog’ tanks were utilised by the Pakistanis as a replacement/substitute for 76-mm Shermans.” But I’ve never heard of a Pakistani source indicating their use of M41s, and I’ve never seen a picture of one in Pakistani service. Which is correct?

tanker2010 (Gary, isn’t it?):

Museums are notorious


I can’t argue with that one!

Just because they put up a sign, it doesn’t prove anything.


That’s true as well; however, I wasn’t looking at the sign so much as the fact that the Indians actually have an M41 in a museum. Like the “M4A4 Shermans” alleged to be of Pakistani origin, the M41 had to have come into their possession from somewhere. More than likely, the M4A4s are simply mis-identified Indian Sherman Vs, as per your implication. Now, I pretty certain that the Indians never received or used M41 Light Tanks, given the sources of their equipment in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. So, if the M41 is not a “mis-identified” Indian Army vehicle, where did it come from? South Vietnam? Thailand? New Zealand? Lebanon? Doubtful; I don’t see evidence of other equipment in Indian museums from these sources, or, for that matter, of South Vietnam or Thailand sharing obsolete military equipment with anyone (except, perhaps, for the case of equipment passing between South Vietnam and North Vietnam). In fact, speaking in general terms, the Post-World War Two items in Indian museums seems to come mainly from two sources: Indian Army inventories, and Pakistani Army inventories. Since I feel pretty secure saying that India didn’t use M41s, that pretty much points towards Pakistan as the source of the M41 in that picture in the above link.

So, can anyone tell me how many M41 Light Tanks were exported to Pakistan, and when they were shipped? Or somehow show me that the Pakistanis never received them?




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 19, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

Since I feel pretty secure saying that India didn’t use M41s, that pretty much points towards Pakistan as the source of the M41 in that picture in the above link.


No, it doesn't at all. Museums trade with others for vehicles all the time. Latrun in Israel has all kinds of vehicles they or their enemies didn't use. To say the source is Pakistan because it's in India and they didn't use them is a bit absurd.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

tanker 2010 (Gary, isn’t it?):

I guess we have a difference of opinion about a tangential subject to my actual question.

I just don’t see the Ahmednagar Cavalry Tank Museum as being big into trading world-wide for tanks to display in their museum, the way that Latrun does, and Saumur, and Bovington. I haven’t seen many pictures lately of the Merkavas and S-Tanks and M60A3s and T-10Ms from their collection — or from any collection, for that matter, in India. My feeling is that the Indians just have other things to be spending their money on.

On the Bharat Rakshak website, there is an image of the inventory of the exhibits of the Ahmednagar Cavalry Tank Museum:

www.bharat-rakshak.com...y.jpg.html

Each of the items on that inventory can be explained as coming from one of three sources: 1) used by the British in India prior to independence and left there on the British withdrawal; 2) served in the Indian Army; or 3) captured by Indian forces during their wars. I don’t see any equipment that does not come from these sources. To my eye, this particular museum wants to display equipment that is relevant to Indian military history.

You would have me accept that there is a source number 4: that the M41 was apparently received in trade from another museum. Why? Why would the museum want an M41 — and only an M41, apparently (since all of the other AFVs can be accounted for in sources 1, 2 & 3 above) — so badly that they would trade for it? And where is the mustered-out Vijayanta that the Indians shipped off to some foreign museum in trade? What world-class museum does their former Vijayanta reside in?



I really didn’t want to have a conversation on whether or not museums have accurate signage, or whether or not tank museums trade stuff back and forth. I really just wanted to find out if someone could verify receipt of M41s by Pakistan, with dates and numbers. Or show me that it never happened. My use of the Ahmednagar Cavalry Tank Museum photo was a way to illustrate the existence of an M41 in India. I believe that the M41 is in that museum because it is “relevant to Indian military history”. Whether it got there via the Pakistani Army Order of Battle or through a trade with another tank museum doesn’t interest me so much as the fact that it is there. So! If you — or anyone else — can help me with my actual question . . . that would be great.



Chris:

Sorry to have hijacked your thread. I hope you have found some answers to your query.

:-/




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
toadmanstankpictures
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Anyone know how many M41A3's the ARVN received?

Thanks guys! I'd already looked through both the Zaloga and Dunston books. I'm just gonna have to use the info from the Duston one based on the date noted.

Thanks again!

_________________
Chris "toadman" Hughes
www.toadmanstankpictures.com
www.cafepress.com/toad...ksandstuff
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum