±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 761
Total: 761
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: News
11: Downloads
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Downloads
15: CPGlang
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Downloads
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Home
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Member Screenshots
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Photo Gallery
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: CPGlang
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Downloads
37: Community Forums
38: CPGlang
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Member Screenshots
42: Community Forums
43: Downloads
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: News Archive
52: Photo Gallery
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: News Archive
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: News Archive
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Downloads
69: Downloads
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Member Screenshots
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Photo Gallery
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Downloads
87: Community Forums
88: Photo Gallery
89: Member Screenshots
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Photo Gallery
95: Community Forums
96: News Archive
97: Community Forums
98: Downloads
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: CPGlang
105: Community Forums
106: Statistics
107: Home
108: Member Screenshots
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Photo Gallery
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Photo Gallery
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Photo Gallery
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Member Screenshots
121: Community Forums
122: Photo Gallery
123: Photo Gallery
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: News
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Photo Gallery
135: Community Forums
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Photo Gallery
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: News
143: Photo Gallery
144: Photo Gallery
145: Photo Gallery
146: Downloads
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Your Account
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Downloads
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: Your Account
183: Community Forums
184: Photo Gallery
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Photo Gallery
188: Community Forums
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Your Account
192: Home
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Downloads
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Home
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Statistics
217: Photo Gallery
218: Photo Gallery
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Home
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Downloads
236: Photo Gallery
237: Statistics
238: Home
239: Community Forums
240: Photo Gallery
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Photo Gallery
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Downloads
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Your Account
266: Community Forums
267: Downloads
268: Photo Gallery
269: Photo Gallery
270: Photo Gallery
271: Downloads
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Photo Gallery
275: Downloads
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: News
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: Community Forums
284: CPGlang
285: Downloads
286: Your Account
287: News
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: News Archive
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Member Screenshots
295: Downloads
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: News Archive
299: Downloads
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Downloads
303: Community Forums
304: Member Screenshots
305: Downloads
306: Community Forums
307: Home
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Photo Gallery
316: Home
317: Home
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Search
325: Community Forums
326: Downloads
327: Downloads
328: Photo Gallery
329: Downloads
330: Photo Gallery
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Member Screenshots
334: News
335: Community Forums
336: Home
337: Community Forums
338: Home
339: Community Forums
340: CPGlang
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Photo Gallery
344: News Archive
345: Photo Gallery
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Member Screenshots
352: Member Screenshots
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: News
356: Member Screenshots
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Downloads
360: Photo Gallery
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Photo Gallery
364: News Archive
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Your Account
368: Home
369: Home
370: Home
371: Your Account
372: Community Forums
373: Home
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Downloads
378: Community Forums
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Photo Gallery
382: Your Account
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Downloads
390: Community Forums
391: Photo Gallery
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Photo Gallery
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Downloads
398: Community Forums
399: Photo Gallery
400: Home
401: Community Forums
402: Home
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: News
408: Member Screenshots
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: CPGlang
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Home
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Search
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Photo Gallery
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Downloads
436: Downloads
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Photo Gallery
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Photo Gallery
450: Community Forums
451: Home
452: Home
453: Community Forums
454: Downloads
455: Photo Gallery
456: Downloads
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Downloads
467: Community Forums
468: Photo Gallery
469: Photo Gallery
470: Downloads
471: Community Forums
472: Member Screenshots
473: Downloads
474: Community Forums
475: Home
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Statistics
479: Home
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Photo Gallery
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Home
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Photo Gallery
503: Home
504: Home
505: Home
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Statistics
509: Community Forums
510: CPGlang
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Downloads
514: Statistics
515: Community Forums
516: Photo Gallery
517: Member Screenshots
518: Downloads
519: Photo Gallery
520: Home
521: Downloads
522: Downloads
523: Photo Gallery
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Downloads
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Downloads
535: Home
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Home
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Search
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Home
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Photo Gallery
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Community Forums
561: Downloads
562: Downloads
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Photo Gallery
567: Photo Gallery
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Home
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Photo Gallery
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Home
584: Home
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Downloads
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Home
592: Community Forums
593: CPGlang
594: Community Forums
595: Photo Gallery
596: Community Forums
597: Home
598: Photo Gallery
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Home
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Home
606: Community Forums
607: Downloads
608: News
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Downloads
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Photo Gallery
615: Community Forums
616: Photo Gallery
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: CPGlang
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: CPGlang
623: Community Forums
624: Downloads
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: CPGlang
630: Community Forums
631: Home
632: Community Forums
633: Photo Gallery
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Home
638: Photo Gallery
639: Statistics
640: Community Forums
641: Home
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: News Archive
647: Community Forums
648: Photo Gallery
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: News
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Downloads
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Photo Gallery
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Community Forums
667: Home
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Photo Gallery
672: Downloads
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Community Forums
678: Home
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: CPGlang
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Home
697: Your Account
698: Photo Gallery
699: Downloads
700: Community Forums
701: CPGlang
702: Home
703: Home
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Downloads
708: Downloads
709: Photo Gallery
710: Community Forums
711: Your Account
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Downloads
715: Community Forums
716: Home
717: Community Forums
718: Photo Gallery
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Home
723: Home
724: Photo Gallery
725: Downloads
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Photo Gallery
730: CPGlang
731: Community Forums
732: CPGlang
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Member Screenshots
738: Downloads
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: News Archive
742: Community Forums
743: Photo Gallery
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Your Account
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Community Forums
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Downloads
755: Community Forums
756: Community Forums
757: Community Forums
758: Community Forums
759: Downloads
760: Your Account
761: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M114 'Lingle' background info
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:08 am
Post subject: M114 'Lingle' background info

I have been a little fuzzy on the variant identification of the M114 as well as an interest in the SN 'game' on the M114.

While doing some late night 'light reading' from the M114 TM 9-2320-224-10, I found a reference that has shed a little light on my informational short-comings.

The M114 (T114) mounts the standard pintle mounted M-2, .50cal commanders weapon.

The M114A1 mounts the M-2, .50cal MG which is internally (solinoid) fired.

The M114A2 (M114A1E1) has the 20mm cannon.

In the TM an interesting notation is found on page 143 (C9) on the M114A1E1.

"The M114A1 vehicle (after serial No. 624), when equipt with the commander's XM27 power cupola and 20mm rapid fire weapon system, is designated as an M114A1E1 vehicle."

just a little 'Lingle' info that I thought y'all might find interesting.

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Dontos! Hi Folks!

You should have asked me, I could have saved you some reading!

The M-114 here at Ft. Bliss is all three.

It was build as a M-114A1

It was upgraded to a M-114A1E1 (or M-114A2 as we called them during the last few years they were in service).

Then during the M-901 TUA and FIST program, it losted it's XM-29 turret to that program.

The gun cradle for the 20mm auto cannon is laying inside it.

Then someone found a T-114 turret and mounted it on the vehicle.

The M-114A1 mounted a XM-26 manuely operated turret and the 50 cal.s where M-2HB TTs. TT = remote fired using a solinoid. It was faster to turn the vehicle than move that turret with the hand crank.

The M-114A1E1 (or M-114A2) mounted the XM-27 hydraulic power turret and the M-139 HS 20mm auto cannon. It was a XM-26 with the manuel contorls replaced by a hydraulic system and a fire selection box added.

If I remember right, the fire selections where 25 rounds rapid, 25 rounds slow, 5 rounds rapid, 5 rounds slow and single shot. I learned the best way to fire that cannon was single shot. The 5 and 25 round selections rocked the vehicle so bad that only the first round would hit a target and all the rest would go over the top.

Ammo came in 25 round belts, two AP-T then three HE-T. I forget how many rounds the ammo box could hold. At the start of the feed chute was a last round detection switch that would interrupt the firing circuit. The fire selection box had an emergancy over ride button that would let you use the last 25 rounds inside the feed chute. If you every had to do that, you had better be able to find cover and some time, because it took a few minutes to reload the feed chute and the feeder assemble. One great thing about that cannon and the way the feeder assemble was loaded was the crews had a ratchet wrench as a part of the weapon's tool kit. AKAIK, the M-114A1E1(M-114A2) was the only vehicle in the Army to rate a ratchet. It was a saftey thing. Using a flex handle socket wrench to position the first round in the feeder assemble could get you hurt if something when wrong and the weapon fired.

During an intell briffing I was told that the AP round could go through the sides of the hulls of the Soviet T-54s, T-55s, and T-62s. I am very happy to have never had to find out.

Spot Report along with some of my old history!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Thanks Roy

I think the SN notation IRT the variant designation was particularily interesting.

This '-10' is filled with more info on the 20mm than it is with the vehicle operation, I'm guessing that there was a problem with understanding its operation and a considerable amount of operators maintenance involved to keep it 'plinking' away.

My interest is primarily on the automotive operation of the vehicle and getting SN 172 roaring to life again.

For those interested individuals, I'm posting some images on my facebook that are viewable to 'the public' and don't require 'membership' or friends approval.

M114 (SN 172)

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Dontos! Hi Folks!

- Dontos

This '-10' is filled with more info on the 20mm than it is with the vehicle operation, I'm guessing that there was a problem with understanding its operation and a considerable amount of operators maintenance involved to keep it 'plinking' away.
Don


"Considerable amount of operators maintenance" is AN UNDERSTATEMENT!

At the time I was learning to operate that weapon, the word was it had been used in jet fighters. I don't know if that is true or not.

During one of the Reforger FTXs, one of the M-114 crews never broke their cannon down and cleaned it. After about 15 days in the field, they had to use a PIPE wrench to get the barrel to come out of the receiver. Never heard of that problem with the M-60 MG or the old M-2 HBs.

The old PS maintance magazine had an article that recommended during training that the weapon be torn down and cleaned after 450 or 550 rounds. During my time in Germany, the Battalion Commander sent the M-114s with the Division Valcun batteries up to an AAA range on the Baltic coast for some anti-aircraft training. That was a lot fun! On the next to the last day we set aside some ammo to be fired on the last day while one of the Assistant Division Commanders watched. One of the vehicles only fire about 200 rounds so we figured that sense we didn't go over the amount the PS magaizine recommended we didn't need to clean the weapon. BIG MISTAKE! The next day we found that weapon would only fire one shot and then needed to be manualy reloaded. So we started tearing it down so we could clean it. We learn that over the night, the gun power and the LSA (Gun lub back in those days) had mixed together and turned into glue! After a good cleaning and a new bath of LSA, the gun worked just fine!

That M-139 needed a lot of LSA to work and it needed to be clearned often.
The weapon came with a tool set that had a million tools in it! Except for one tool, every one of them was required to break the weapon down. EVERY LAST ONE of them was REQUIRED to put that cannon back to together. Lose just one of those tools and you couldn't take it apart or put it back together. If I remember right, that tool kit had more tools in it than the vehicle automative tool bag had!

It has been said that "AFVs don't move over the ground, they move through it". I never had a problem with a M-2 HB or a M-60 MG firing when needed. That M-139 was not a good choice for an AFV. If it is true that it was an aircraft cannon. Then up in the clean air and an airbase to return to at the end of ever mission so it could be broken down and cleaned it was a good weapon. It was one he## of a weapon to fire. But down in the dirt and dust of the world of AFVs, it was a bad choice. It was fun to fire, but I would not have wanted to take that weapon into a war.

Spot Report, some of my old history, and my 2 cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:31 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

- Roy_A_Lingle
At the time I was learning to operate that weapon, the word was it had been used in jet fighters. I don't know if that is true or not.


True, the M139 was a slightly modified version of what originated as an aircraft cannon, specifically the Hispano-Suiza HS.820/Oerlikon KAD.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:30 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Roy, IIRC the 20mm was supposed to be an AAA weapon. What experience did you have training or using it for that purpose?

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:17 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Kurt! Hi Folks!

"the 20mm was supposed to be an AAA weapon"?

That was not what we had planned or trained to use it as. Execpt for that one trip up to the Baltic Coast, all the training and live firing we did was direct fire engagements. AFAIK, we were the only Scout Section to ever go up to that AAA range from all of the 7th US Army. During all of the Scout Section eval's that I took part in none of them had any aerial target action.

As for AAA training, we all received the basic Warsaw Pack equipment ID training that every soldier received along with basic aircraft engagements SOP. I would not call that advanced in anyway.

During the live firing at the AAA range, we were all doing it by OJT. We started out using five rounds fast, dropped back to five rounds slow, and then single shot. We would get a single hit from time to time, but none of us could get a second hit on the target. One day a Armored Branch Colonel from 7th Army stop by to check us out. He was a good freind of our Battalion Commander and had help get the approval to do this. We told him how we had been doing and he watched a number of engagements. That Colonel saw that we were having two problems. One was the speed ring aircraft engagment sight. It was messing up our first shot because it was hard to see the target through that plexiglass. He told us to remove it and use the front sight post and Kentucky windage. The second problem was the muzzle blast. It was so big and thick that it blocked the gunner's view of the tracer and make it very hard to get the next round on target. He told us to try using BOT with a second soldier acting as the spotter standing up and hanging off the back side of the TC's hatch. In no time at all everyone of us were able to make multiple hits during each pass.

There were three classes of targets:
An AT-6 Texan was the slow target tug. Most guys were getting 5 to 6 hits per pass.
A OV-10 Bronco was the medium speed target tug. Most were getting 4 to 5 hits per pass.
A Fiat G-91 Jet (that Fiat bird that looks a lot like a F-86 Saber Jet) was the fast target. Most of us got 2 hits per pass and we had two guys who made 3 hits. The big problem with the fast target was it crossed our range fan to fast. We had to stop shooting because it exited our left or right firing limits before we could get off more rounds.

"the 20mm was supposed to be an AAA weapon".

In my live fire experience with the M-139 20mm and standing near the M-61 20mm Vulcan during both aerial and direct fire engagments I would say:
The M-139 20mm is a anti-light armored vehicle weapon system with a VERY LIMITED ability to hit aerial targets. That M-139 is NOT a AAA weapon.

The M-61 20mm Vulcan IS an AAA weapon system with a VERY POOR ability to use the ammo on a ground target. It takes way to long to reload the magazine on that system.

In many books the M-2 HB 50 cal. MG is reported to be mounted on the top of many AFVs as an ANTI-AIRCRAFT weapon. That is pure BS. Not once during my time as an 11D Armored Scout was any aircraft engagement training ever done with the M-2. During the times I was supporting tank gunner quals with M-551s and M-60A1s, all 50 cal engagments were ground targets. There were never any aerial targets.

Just because a book says a weapon is an AAA gun, doesn't make it so.
A lot of my old history and a pocket full of pennys.
Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:17 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Roy

Neat stuff.

In many books the M-2 HB 50 cal. MG is reported to be mounted on the top of many AFVs as an ANTI-AIRCRAFT weapon. That is pure BS. Not once during my time as an 11D Armored Scout was any aircraft engagement training ever done with the M-2. During the times I was supporting tank gunner quals with M-551s and M-60A1s, all 50 cal engagments were ground targets. There were never any aerial targets.


In the mid-80's while shooting a CALFEX at Graf Rg 301, we were presented two aerial targets for the Vulcan crew. The targets were scaled Soviet fast attack fighters (Foam RC planes).

We attempted to engage with .50cals,......what a waste of ammo!! 4 tanks firing .50cal into the sky!! 'Sky Sweepers' one and all, but nowhere close to the figure '8' flying attack aircraft. Anytime someone got close, the ammo box ran empty and loaders scrambled to reload the 'ma deuce'. (I was one such loader....)

The vulcan was initially worse with short bursts, but finally 'ambushed' the target aircraft after 5 or 10 passes. (!?) So much for confidence in the ol' 'Duck Hunters' on a tactical level.

So your assessment of the M-2 .50cal as a AAA weapon is realistic,.....total BS. (although decent against helicopters).

Awesome, 'unwritten' history lesson. Thanks

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Folks!

Something I forgot to bring up about the differences between the M-139 on a M-114 and the M-61 Vulcan on a M-113. The Vulcan carrier has a suspension lock out system. The driver has a lever he uses to lock the ten road wheel arms at the top of the arm. That makes a big differeance with the second and all follow on rounds.

During a Mech Infantry Bn TF "Mad Minute" at Hohenfels Training Area, with a platoon of M-60A2s and a pair of Vulcans, I had a long range target engagment experience with that same M-139/M-114 we had taken to the AAA range. The area on the firing line were my M-114 was had an old hull down trench for a M-113 size vehicle. I had my driver park the vehicle across the ditch with the sprockets resting on one bank and the idler wheels resting on the other bank. The four road wheels where hanging in the air. There were two 75mm Sherman hard targets around 1,200 yards down range that were in line with each other and about 200 yards apart. Using five round fast burst, I found an aimming point short (starting with AP) of the near Sherman that had the second round (AP again) hitting the first tank, the third round (HE) landing about mid-way between the two, the four round (HE) hitting the second tank and the fifth round (HE) going over it. I was able to do that a number of times as long as I started with an AP round in the chamber.

That was when I learned that the Vulcan made a poor system for engaging ground targets. Watching those Duck Hunters reload that magazine was a amazing. They had the ramp down and a number of ammo cans lined up with the belts linked together. Even with that prep, it took a couple of minutes to reload the magazine. Then they did it a second time when they reloaded the system with dummy ammo.

Something I learned about the Vulcan system during my time in Germany is that system is ALWAYS LOADED. If the magazine doesn't have live ammo it must have dummy ammo. The Vulcan has an interupter switch with an override button if the last set of rounds MUST BE FIRED just like the M-139. While the M-139 was a pain to position a new round in the feeder and it took a couple of minutes, the Duck Hunters told me that they had to have Direct Support open their system up and install a belt of rounds between the interupter switch position in the magazine and the weapon's receiver. They also told me it was a battalion level Article 15 (for you non-US Military types, not a good thing to have in your personal folder) if a gunner used that over ride button during training.

Some more of my old history and a few more cents.
Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Thanks Roy!

I have a mid-70's Training Circular that gives a more realistic plan and philosophy for "amateur" AA fire. In it they give simple rules for leading jets, props, and choppers regardless of the weapon being used. The philosophy was pretty reasonable, essentially, everyone should fire their weapons at attacking aircraft, not because you are likely to shoot them down or even hit them, but because the fear of the "Golden BB" is the best deterrent/distraction there is to a pilot. Anything you can do to knock him off his line is worth it because it might save your life.

I'm guessing that mentions of AA roles for various weapons in TMs was mainly to inform crews that you COULD shoot them upward . . .

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:25 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Kurt! Hi Folks!

- Kurt_Laughlin

I have a mid-70's Training Circular that gives a more realistic plan and philosophy for "amateur" AA fire. In it they give simple rules for leading jets, props, and choppers regardless of the weapon being used. The philosophy was pretty reasonable, essentially, everyone should fire their weapons at attacking aircraft, not because you are likely to shoot them down or even hit them, but because the fear of the "Golden BB" is the best deterrent/distraction there is to a pilot. Anything you can do to knock him off his line is worth it because it might save your life.

I'm guessing that mentions of AA roles for various weapons in TMs was mainly to inform crews that you COULD shoot them upward . . .
KL


That "amateur, Golden BB" plan was the basic engagment training that I was talking about.

During my time out in the bush in Vietnam there were many times we had restrictions on which weapons and directions that we could fire. It didn't matter what was coming in, those restrictions protected other troopers.

A number of years later during a FTX at Hohenfels the Scout Platoon was on Castle Guard and the Battalion Command post was attacked by some West German F-104 Starfighters. Everybody cut lose at those planes using the "amateur, Golden BB" idea. It was a lot of fun at the time and it made the controllers happy.

Later I remembered those engagment restirictions during my time in Vietnam and it dawned on me that this "wild firing" by everyone is crazy! All the rules of engagment and fields of fire go out the window. There were two Redeye teams protecting the CP. They have a chance of hitting something where the "wild firing" has a greater chance of hitting someone on the ground.

After that the first thing I though about was the current rules of engagment and clear fields of fire before I opened up. That "amateur, Golden BB" SOP maybe dangerous for aircraft, but it is a greater danger to other troops.

Sense we have driffed off into the world of weapons and AAA training I have a questions for all you M-60 and M-1 tankers.

Did any of you ever get any training on using the main gun and sabot on aircraft?

Some more old history and few more cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:51 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Roy

The engagement criteria for aircraft was stricty .50cal. In the simulators there was never a fast mover target presented only rotary aircraft (choppers). That is supposed to be a TC's .50cal engagement only.

Main gun engagement was always discussed but not considered 'exceptable' to training standards.

"Ambushing" a fast mover with main gun was real problematic, so someone decided to 'fill the sky with lead' (COAX & .50cal) and that was considered to be the standard.

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

I remember on Challenger we were taught about using sabot against helicopters, but I don't remember anything about engaging airplanes.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

The HEAT-MP 120mm round has or was supposd to have an AA capability.

I asked last year about an AA capability for the Shilleagh. I guess the same thing would apply to TOW . . . I believe it was tested for air-to-air when first mounted on choppers.

On the other end, in ODS an A-10 used a Maverick missile (a near supersonic ASM with a 300 lb explosive charge that is capable of destroying an MBT by kinetic energy alone) to destroy an Iraqi helicopter. The pilot's quote was that the helicopter "sort of just disappeared."

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum