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New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35,
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:43 pm
Post subject: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35,

Got a decent number of good pics despite the weather on Saturday. Also had a good time being a member of Bob's tour.

First off, here's the recently arrived M4A1(76) Sherman. I know Jeff has been interested in this Sherman.

This%20Sherman%20has%20markings%20from%20three%20different%20units%20-%20French%20army,%2014th%20ACR%20and%2011th%20ACR.%20 The%20French%20markings%20could%20well%20be%20the%20oldest%20and%20possibly%20date%20to%20WWII.%20As%20typical%20with%20Free%20French%20Shermans,%20this%20one%20is%20named.%20Its%20very%20hard%20to%20make%20out,%20but%20it%20appears%20to%20match%20up%20with%20a%20Free%20French%20Sherman%20named%20\"Niederbronn.\"%20There%20was%20a%20Sherman%20by%20that%20name%20in%20the%204e%20squadron%20of%20the%201er%20Cuirassiers.%20Unfortunately,%20I%20cant%20find%20any%20other%20info%20to%20confirm%20if%20that%20Sherman%20was%20indeed%20an%20M4A1(76).%20The%20French%20often%20re-painted%20Shermans%20after%20the%20war%20in%20the%20colors%20of%20a%20notable%20wartime%20Sherman,%20so%20this%20may%20or%20may%20not%20be%20an%20original.%20It%20could%20have%20well%20been%20a%20French%20army%20tank%20monument%20at%20one%20time... The%20turret%20sides%20have%20the%20insignia%20of%20the%2014th%20Armored%20Cavalry%20Regiment%20on%20them. As%20you%20can%20also%20see,%20there%20are%20names%20underneath%20the%2014th%20ACR%20insignia,%20but%20I%20cant%20quite%20make%20them%20out... The%20Sherman%20also%20has%202/11%20ACR%20on%20its%20fenders,%20I%20assume%20this%20was%20the%20last%20owners.%20Did%20the%2011th%20ACR%20take%20over%20from%20the%2014th%20in%20Germany? Here's%20the%20Ordnance%20Museum's%20new%20M60A2%20that%20just%20appeared.%20 The%20museum's%20Czech%20LT-35%20has%20just%20come%20out%20of%20the%20refurb%20facility: I%20am%20interested%20to%20see%20that%20the%20LT-35%20has%20what%20appear%20to%20be%20bullet%20marks%20on%20the%20front%20hull%20-%20considering%20it%20was%20captured%20at%20the%20Hillersleiben%20proving%20ground%20(like%20many%20other%20items)%20in%201945.%20Maybe%20GIs%20shot%20at%20it%20to%20make%20sure%20it%20wasnt%20operational%20as%20the%20area%20was%20being%20seized?%20 The%20Somua%20S-35%20also%20apparently%20about%20to%20go%20through%20the%20restoration%20facility,%20along%20with%20the%20Vickers%20Mk%20VIB%20light%20tank.%20The%20hatch%20to%20the%20S-35%20was%20open,%20so%20I%20took%20the%20liberty%20of%20taking%20a%20few%20pics%20;) BTW,%20the%20S-35%20was%20also%20captured%20at%20Hillerslieben. Engine Gun%20Breech%20&%20Turret%20interior Ammo%20Rack The%20Mk%20VIB%20was%20mostly%20wrapped%20up,%20but%20has%20been%20stripped%20in%20prep%20for%20repainting.

Thats enough for now. More to come though. The museum's Matilda also had a hatch open, so I got a few interior pics. Also took some better pics in the museum warehouse of the Christie tank, T1E2 Cunningham light tank, M1920 75mm GMC (just came through refurb), etc.

Neil


Last edited by Neil_Baumgardner on Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:59 pm
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35,

- Neil_Baumgardner

This Sherman has markings from three different units - French army, 14th ACR and 11th ACR.

The Sherman also has 2/11 ACR on its fenders, I assume this was the last owners. Did the 11th ACR take over from the 14th in Germany?

Neil


Neil,
Yes, the 14th reflagged as the 2/11th ACR not long after their stand-down from Vietnam (that would be not long after Roy and I left it)...the markings make perfect sense.

Any idea where the M60A2 came from? Any numbers? (any trace of "test operation" to be found on sponsons or front glacis?...or "TEC-EBD" on lower glacis as "bumper markings")

Doug


Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:02 pm
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35

Neil,
Damn straight I'm interested in that Sherman. I've done what I can though. I notified Neil Morrison, the museum director, (he's the man showing Doug the exhibits in the 11th ACR museum pictures I posted from Dougs visit here) and he's got the ball now. He told me he will have the post and 11th ACR commanders request the tank be sen to the NTC for display. That Shermans tread looks remarkably clean and free of rust. Was it replaced or refurbished somehow? I'll forward these pictures to Neil tomorrow.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35,

- Doug_Kibbey


Neil,
Yes, the 14th reflagged as the 2/11th ACR not long after their stand-down from Vietnam...the markings make perfect sense.


Thanks. Curious about the names though...


Any idea where the M60A2 came from? Any numbers? (any trace of "test operation" to be found on sponsons or front glacis?)

Doug


Actually, I think it came from "behind the fence." The front hull has "demil," "sold" and "museum" written on it, as well as "S/N 136785." "Identified for Turnin" is also painted on repeatedly.

"Auto [?]ost" appears to be written on the lower right and left hull, maybe with arrows pointing towards the idler?

Here's a front pic.



Neil
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:12 pm
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35,

- Neil_Baumgardner
- Doug_Kibbey


Neil,
Yes, the 14th reflagged as the 2/11th ACR not long after their stand-down from Vietnam...the markings make perfect sense.


Thanks. Curious about the names though...

Neil


Neil...
That is a great question that should be posed to the guys at www.eaglehorse.org Try Bob Stephanowisc (sp?) who's listed...post in the guestbook and a link to your pic. Somebody might well recognize the names from an old roster or they may well have pics in their extensive gallery there (which you can view, they have useful labels in most cases)
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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:43 pm
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35,

I think you'll find a number of names overlaying each other. Typically these gate guards are repainted with the names of the crew that won the annual or most recent gunnery competition or overall "tankmanship" type award.

KL
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:58 pm
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35

Neil,
Those four mounting points on the front glacis are interesting...I wonder what's up with that? Never seen anything like that on these before.

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:25 am
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35

- Doug_Kibbey
Neil,
Those four mounting points on the front glacis are interesting...I wonder what's up with that? Never seen anything like that on these before.


Ladder mounts which would make that vehicle an M60A1E1?

Cool

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Chris_C
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:39 am
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35

I dunno...the ladders looked like they were mounted right up against the left-side headlight guard. These are more centered?

Edit: It's also based on an M60A1 hull, so that would make it an M60A1E2 if it were one of the prototypes. Wink
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:58 am
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35

- Chris_C
I dunno...the ladders looked like they were mounted right up against the left-side headlight guard. These are more centered?

Edit: It's also based on an M60A1 hull, so that would make it an M60A1E2 if it were one of the prototypes. Wink


Agreed...the only ladder mounts I've seen were offset to the loader's side...and in very few pics at that...always of an early development version.
I haven't seen a pic of one center-mounted...which is why I asked.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:03 am
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35

- Doug_Kibbey
- Chris_C
I dunno...the ladders looked like they were mounted right up against the left-side headlight guard. These are more centered?

Edit: It's also based on an M60A1 hull, so that would make it an M60A1E2 if it were one of the prototypes. Wink


Agreed...the only ladder mounts I've seen were offset to the loader's side...and in very few pics at that...always of an early development version.
I haven't seen a pic of one center-mounted...which is why I asked.


Yeah, I looked at that too.

However, I'd note that the turret is an M60A2 model rather than a developmental model.

Neil
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:15 am
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35

- Neil_Baumgardner
However, I'd note that the turret is an M60A2 model rather than a developmental model.

Neil


Yep, I'd already noticed and commented on that. This is either a full-on M60A2 or a vehicle cobbled together from gen-u-ine A2 bits (for what reason I really can't imagine). I've never seen any pic of an A2 that had a ladder mount on the glacis, or anything else for that matter. It looks too elaborate and heavy-duty to have been a plaque mount on a display tank.

Any kind of plows or blades ever been stuck on one of these?
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:07 am
Post subject: Some more pics from APG - Matilda, M1920, Christie, T1E2, et

As promised, some interior pics of the museum's Matilda.

Of%20course%20the%20Ordnance%20Museum's%20Matilda%20has%20a%20fairly%20interesting%20history.%20%20It%20was%20lost%20to%20the%20Germans%20in%20a%20battle%20at%20Sidi%20Rezag-Halfaya%20Pass%20in%20November%201941.%20It%20was%20re-marked%20by%20the%20Germans%20and%20used%20as%20a%20pill%20box%20at%20the%20same%20pass%20until%20recaptured%20by%20the%20British%20after%20the%20battle%20of%20El%20Alemein%20in%20October%201942.%20It%20was%20then%20sent%20to%20the%20US%20as%20part%20of%20reverse%20Lend-Lease%20scrap%20shipments%20in%201943%20and%20diverted%20by%20COL%20Jarrett%20to%20the%20museum%20in%201944. Now%20some%20pics%20from%20inside%20the%20museum%20warehouse.%20Sorry%20Don,%20the%20Ontos%20is%20gone.%20I%20assume%20its%20back%20at%20Quantico%20now%20-%20the%20new%20National%20Museum%20of%20the%20US%20Marine%20Corps%20is%20set%20to%20open%20on%20November%2010th. The%20long-missing%20M1920%2075mm%20gun%20motor%20carriage%20has%20re-appeared%20in%20the%20warehouse%20after%20having%20gone%20through%20the%20refurb%20facility: Some%20more%20pics%20of%20the%20T3%20Christie%20Tornado: The%20Christie's%20engine: The%20T1E2%20Cunningham%20light%20tank The%20M1922E%20Mk%20X%204.7\"%20Gun%20Motor%20Carriage%20(bad%20lighting)

Neil
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:12 am
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35,

BTW, the Christie's Liberty V-12 engine looks to be in relatively good condition (at least the front of it does). If there's one thing at the Ordnance Museum I'd like to see running it would probably be the Christie - if just because it could move! Supposedly up to 70mph on wheels?!

Neil
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:53 pm
Post subject: Re: New Pics from APG - M4A1(76) Sherman, M60A2, LT-35, S-35,

Folks, I want to sing Neils praises. I was there when he took the Matilda pics. I couldn't see as much detail by looking in the hatch as Neil has in the pictures! And those pictures were made with a handheld 'ctick the camera in the hatch' method. And the warehouse doesn't seem to be lit anywhere near as well as Neil makes it appear.

Neil Thanks for all the photo's I know I like them and I can see the subjects on a regular basis. For the folks who can't get to Aberdeen the pictures are the next best thing. Of course you don't get the inciteful commentary that you get on my guided tours Smile So there is still a reason to make the trip.

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