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This would be a what and where?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:35 pm
Post subject: This would be a what and where?

[img][/img]
The caption with this picture called it a "Tank Silencer". I'm guessing this test velocity/ballistics of various cannon rounds and systems? Any one please feel free to verify and where might this testing mainly take place? Is there a similar device for tanks and other types of armor, like Bradleys?

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:37 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

Jeff,
A well-known pic that makes the rounds, usually with funny speculative captions. Actually in Germany (I believe) at a range for practice/testing, IIRC. Yep, it's for sound suppression to placate the "Greens".
...and that's an M109 Howitzer, but I bet tanks see some use also.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:50 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

You mean they fire on ranges with this at each gun system just to keep the noise down? What a pile of crap. I thought this was here in the states at a testing facility for research purposes. I did find this on strangemilitary.com. From which I'm sure this has come from before, I just had never seen it before.

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

Hi Jeff! Hi Folks!

Like Doug said, it for the German Army so they can still conduct live firings of large weapons. They have very few training ranges where things like a 155 can be fired without waking up the neighbors.

Here at Ft. Bliss, MRLS Battalions railhead in here from time to time to conduct live firing training out at the Donna Anna ranges to the north of El Paso. My house is about 10 to 15 miles from those ranges and I can hear the rockets firing and landing. It doesn't bother me, but some of my neighbors who have never been around anything like that before don't like to hear things like that.

Also up at Holloman AFB which is north/north east of El Paso about 50 to 60 miles, the German Air Force has a squadron based there. They conduct low level, high speed training flights over the open desert of southern New Mexico and West Texas. They have no area in German where an aircraft can fly without passing over a town every two or three seconds.

I think I have heard that the US Army is working with Poland (?) to set up a large training area so U.S. Forces in Europe can cut lose without bothering the neighbors.

My 2 cents,
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:24 am
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

I was not aware that foriegn Air Force units were stationed here for training. I bet its a "choice" assignment for them though!

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mike_Duplessis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:50 am
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

German SP gun for sure - you can just barely make out the little German cross.
As for noise, the Germans do seem to have their share of troubles in that regard. Leopard II crews, I read somewhere, had to switch from berrets to helmets so noise portection could be added. Leo II interior is pretty darned noisey, i guess. Also the Swiss Leopard IIs had to be fitted with big-arse (literally) mufflers because the tank's diesel engine was rattling the fillings out of the teeth of the locals!

I hear the prize for most noisey tank interior goes to the Churchill. Something about dragging the tracks over the top of the fighting compartment instead of using return rollers.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:46 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

The Germans have been here for years, ever since we reconstituted the Luftwaffe for NATO. Many of the German Aircraft have US markings just to protect American sensibilities. The weather is much better in the American Southwest for flying training as well as having much more open space.

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:55 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

Do any other countries fly inside the US? The German planes with US markings, are they American made planes?

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JG300-Ascout
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:59 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Do any other countries fly inside the US? The German planes with US markings, are they American made planes?


All manner of foreign nationals used to get training at Shepard AFB at Wichita Falls, TX. Iranians too, at one time, but I think that particular program may be on hold....

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:35 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

I know that The Germans fly ( or flew) T-37, T-38 and F-104s with American Markings. I suspect that they had F-4Fs also The F-4F was a version built specifically for the Germans I believe it was a single seat version without Aim-7 Sparrow support.

I'm sure the Saudies and Israelis as well as several others did flying training in the U.S. but I think they were under USAF training control.

When I went through Keesler in 1976 for avionics traing there would be Iranian classes 'in the cycle' I know Instructers did everything they could to avoid having to teach those classes. 'How do you teach advanced avionics to people who weren't interested in uderstanding the connection between the switch on the wall and the light overhead. When I went back to Keesler in 82 to crosstrain into computers Our instructor, a woman, said it was difficult teaching Saudi cllasses. There it was the lower status of women in the Saudi mind

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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

Yes,

Bob's right, the German Luftwaffe trains its pilots in F-4Fs with US markings, but IIRC at least some of the planes had/have German camouflage schemes.

The Tornado is also flown in the US, and up at Goose Bay in Canada, the Eurofighter will eventually probably be flown in the US as well- as has been mentioned, we just don't have as much space between settlements, since ours is one of those European countries crammed full of people... This is also the reason for the silencer for the M109, as that particular evaluation and research establishment is right next to a city.

Cheers,

Jens O.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

Does the German AF currently fly Phantoms? My two favorite jets are the F105 Thunderchief and F4 Phantom.

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:24 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

This is one of the pages I found with Google using 'Luftwaffe F-4F'

www.vogue-web.ch/f4/f4_43.html

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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:03 pm
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

- SFC_Jeff_Button
[img][/img]
The caption with this picture called it a "Tank Silencer". I'm guessing this test velocity/ballistics of various cannon rounds and systems? Any one please feel free to verify and where might this testing mainly take place? Is there a similar device for tanks and other types of armor, like Bradleys?


Hello Jeff,
This picture is taken at Meppen in Germany, for some pictures and German text;

www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

Here is the WTD 91 (Wehr Technische Dienststelle 91) located which test all types of ammo. As mentioned in another post it is close by civilian population centers. The device is a gigantic silencer and in use with the artillery, not tanks. Meppen is also one of the places were it is allowed to fire the LKE II round. For example, the NL army did some test with the Germans here with the LKE II, firing rounds from -50 to +50 to see what the effects are. This was done without silencer.

Mike,
We (NL) went over to hard helmets because of protection of the head when driving through the terrain. In the past they gave us earplugs which filter out sounds of a certain decibel level. But with these in and a headset you hear nothing so now its only the headset.

The German crews at Altmark, Germany had last summer still their black barrets with only the intercom/radio set over it. The noise inside a Leopard 2 isn't that bad, inside a YPR, even with headset, is really terrible.....

On the Leopard 2, it was possible to leave the intercom switch on and drive, this gave no problem. In the YPR, my driver sometimes hates me for leaving the intercom switch on......

Regards,
Lesley
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: This would be a what and where?

Hi Folks!

Follow up on the Germans at Hollman AFB.

They fly German owned Tornados, with Luftwaffe markings, and a type of forest camo job. The squadron was activited about three, maybe four years ago. It replaced a USAF unit was deactivited. So the locals where very happy to have the pilots and their families move there.

As far as the Luftwaffe being in the U.S., Ft. Bliss has the largest unit outside of Germany stationed here. They come here to learn Hercules (closed down a long time ago) Hawk (that school was closed down at the start of last year) and Patriot air defense systems. They can conduct live missile firings out at McGreager Range, something they can not do any where in Germany. They equipment has German markings with the NATO wood lands green camo jobs. The local cable TV system even has Europian news channel with many of the programs in German.

If it is a U.S. made air defense system that we sell to other countries, then them come here to learn the system.

Ft. Bliss has been the host to an air defense FTX for a number of years. Battalions from different NATO counties have been coming here for years. Makes for very interesting traffic on the major roads here during the start up and stand down afterwards.

AFV content, I spend four years in German and never saw a Gerpard. Here in El Paso, I have seen a dozen or more sense I retired.

Spot Report,
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