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Updated M21 Rifle? The AFV official reloading thread.....
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:12 am
Post subject: Updated M21 Rifle? The AFV official reloading thread.....

Hi Folks!

Noticed the following photo in the April issue of Army magazine. No credit listed for the photo. Troops are with A Company, 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry, 2nd Brigade Combat Team 'Strike Brigade', 101st Airborne Division, attached to Task Force Baghdad under the 4th Infantry Division.



Looks like a M14 with a new stock. My guess is it maybe a M21 Sniper Rifle. I would think the Army is NOT issuing standard M14s.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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mumfordlibrarian
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:10 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

Roy, is he holding that rifle to shoot, or just to spot? The rifle looks like it has an extendable butt-stock that is not extended, nor is it being held to the shoulder if it is intended to be shot. If he is spotting, that does not look like a long eye relief scope.

Paul T. Weaver
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oldtop
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:41 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

This M14 (pictured) is equipped with a M14 EBR (M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle), the stock is a Sage International Chassis Stock System with integral quad rails for mounting scopes, side mounting of tactical "white lights" , night sights, and range finder system, most of these rifles are equipped with "Harris bipod" . The rail above the receiver is a Mil Std 1913 rail with what might be a Leupold "day optic", these kits have been purchases by several U.S. commands (82 AB) want one of these kits , you can get them at "Fulton Armory"...oh ya, THE M14 IS BACK!!!!
..The ammo being used in these rifles is loaded by Black Hills with Sierra's 168 gr Matchking bullets (I hand roll my own (308 Win) using these bullets for my Savage 10 and Fal L1A1 and they hold a group very well out to 700 yards).


Last edited by oldtop on Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:43 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

Hi Paul! Hi Folks!

- mumfordlibrarian
Roy, is he holding that rifle to shoot, or just to spot? The rifle looks like it has an extendable butt-stock that is not extended, nor is it being held to the shoulder if it is intended to be shot. If he is spotting, that does not look like a long eye relief scope.
Paul T. Weaver
mumfordlibrarian


He is using the scope to look at possible IEDs.
I agree about the butt-stock looking like it is extendable.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:02 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

- oldtop

..The ammo being used in these rifles is loaded by Black Hills with Sierra's 168 gr Matchking bullets (I hand roll my own (308 Win) using these bullets for my Savage 10 and Fal L1A1 and they hold a group very well out to 700 yards).


I'd be loading LC cases with Hornady 168g BTHP-Match bullets over 44g of Olin-Winchester 748....that is, if I believed such sinister implements belonged in the hands of irresponsible civilans....
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oldtop
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:24 am
Post subject: Re: A better look

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oldtop
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:34 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

"I'd be loading LC cases with Hornady 168g BTHP-Match bullets over 44g of Olin-Winchester 748....that is, if I believed such sinister implements belonged in the hands of irresponsible civilans...." hummmmm, well if I believe you were really irresponsible you'ed be using Vihtavuori powders..don't ya just love the loading data in heavy black print!
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:15 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

- oldtop
"hummmmm, well if I believe you were really irresponsible you'ed be using Vihtavuori powders..don't ya just love the loading data in heavy black print!

OT...
I'm not familiar with Vihtavuori...then again, I'm an old-fashioned guy and still have a couple of canisters of Hercules (not Alliant) powders.
I reality-tested an 18 year old unopened can of 2400 a couple of months a go and couldn't detect any difference in performance from new stuff.

Returning to rifle loads for a sec...when my stock of LC brass and ammo runs out, I don't know where I'm gonna' turn for autoloader brass in 7.62NATO...suggestions?
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piney
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:29 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

Just my two cents but the matchkings, unless they have been changed since the days I used them have a very small hollow point that would make them a no-no under Geneva. regarding cases Doug you should be fine with civie stuff, it always worked fine in both my M1A and my H&K 91 ( seriously strange looking empties there)

Jeff Lewis
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

OleTop...
OK...I went and had a look-see. I recognize the "lapua" name, but never used. The load table looks reasonable...2,600-2,700 looks about right for my present load (maybe more like 2,550-2,600) so it's not outrageous or anything (I NEVER exceed anything I can't find in a published load table anyway, even allowing for "liability" issues...I have some older tables that were less "conservative").

Hey, since there are several of us'ns here, maybe we need an Off Topic Reloading Thread in here or the Officers Club were we don't have to deal with some of the level of dialogue on this topic I've seen on a few dedicated forums....is there enough interest and enough to say? Reloaders/Handloaders, sound off...
(Oooooh! Maybe I'll start a poll...!)
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oldtop
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

I would guess your 7.62 NATO is a fun-shooter, IMI 7.62 ammo is not bad (israeli) and the brass is reloadable, just don't use it in a bolt action..
..The matchking 168gr used is not the stuff we "irresponsible types" get our hands on, the Mil type is non HP, when and if this mess we'er in over there is over I'll be looking that type of bullets to flood the market, for my Savege Model. 10 308 Win I use Black Hills onces fired brass , however because the range I fire at is less than a mile from Camp Lejuene (North Carolina) and there are retired and active Marine shooters coming out of the woodwork I can put on the humble-look and get some of the brass and test reloads from them, if the gun has been made there is on any given day some one shooting it and/or test firing a load for them at this range.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:29 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

- oldtop
I would guess your 7.62 NATO is a fun-shooter, IMI 7.62 ammo is not bad (israeli) and the brass is reloadable, just don't use it in a bolt action..


Yep...I'm a little beyond the using-in-anger phase and I got a helluva' deal at the time...couldn't pass it up (NM barrel and sights, TRW bolt, NRA "excellent" original wood stock-$675. They had two a the time and I wish now I'd bought them both....) If I was gonna hunt, I'd get a bolt action. I just wail on paper now.

Nice rigs ya' got there. Let's see some more! Better yet, check out the Handloader poll and see if you wanna'. I mostly load for handguns because we've got a space problem where I live....
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oldtop
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:57 am
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

A few more.
This%20is%20my%20Russian%20and%20it's%20a%20real%20brut,%20but%20fun%20to%20shoot%20for%20a%20while,%20for%20this%20one%20I%20buy%20my%20ammo%20by%20the%20case.
I've just scoped this FAL.
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

Doesn't take much to spark up a good gun discussion!

- piney
Just my two cents but the matchkings, unless they have been changed since the days I used them have a very small hollow point that would make them a no-no under Geneva. ...
Jeff Lewis


The HP is an accuracy assist. I once read a memo proported to be US JAG's that rationalized the hollow point as a means to minimize collateral casualties. I think it was on snipercountry.com.

As for AFVs, collapsible stocks (like the picture that started all this) are handier than full length weapons. I rather enjoyed the 9mm SMG C1 back when it was issued to crewmen.
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David_Reasoner
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Updated M21 Sniper Rifle?

- piney
Regarding cases Doug you should be fine with civie stuff, it always worked fine in both my M1A and my H&K 91 ( seriously strange looking empties there)

Jeff Lewis


I know what you mean about strange looking cases and the H&K 91. Between the powder stains from the fluted chamber and the big dent in the side from being slung hard against the side of the ejection port! Also memories of scanning the weeds several yards forward and to the right of my lane looking for my spent cases. At least they weren't too hard to pick out from the rest! (except for the time I picked up a Portugese made Berdan-primed case by mistake and broke a decapping pin before I spotted it).

David
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