±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 597
Total: 597
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Your Account
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Statistics
19: Photo Gallery
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Your Account
25: Community Forums
26: CPGlang
27: Your Account
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: News
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Downloads
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Statistics
41: News
42: Home
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Home
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Downloads
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Downloads
55: Downloads
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Photo Gallery
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Home
62: Home
63: Home
64: Photo Gallery
65: Member Screenshots
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: News Archive
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Member Screenshots
82: Community Forums
83: Photo Gallery
84: Statistics
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Downloads
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Downloads
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Home
102: Home
103: Downloads
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Photo Gallery
110: Downloads
111: Community Forums
112: Photo Gallery
113: Downloads
114: Photo Gallery
115: Downloads
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Downloads
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Downloads
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Photo Gallery
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Downloads
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: CPGlang
158: Home
159: Downloads
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: CPGlang
169: Photo Gallery
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: News Archive
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Home
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Member Screenshots
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Downloads
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Your Account
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Home
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Photo Gallery
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Statistics
220: Community Forums
221: Downloads
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Home
231: Home
232: Photo Gallery
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Statistics
236: Home
237: Photo Gallery
238: Photo Gallery
239: Member Screenshots
240: Community Forums
241: Downloads
242: Photo Gallery
243: Home
244: Photo Gallery
245: Home
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Downloads
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Photo Gallery
263: Home
264: Home
265: Community Forums
266: Photo Gallery
267: Home
268: CPGlang
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Downloads
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Photo Gallery
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Downloads
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Member Screenshots
298: Photo Gallery
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Photo Gallery
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Member Screenshots
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Downloads
310: Home
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Your Account
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: News Archive
319: Community Forums
320: Photo Gallery
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Statistics
329: Community Forums
330: Downloads
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Member Screenshots
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Photo Gallery
339: Your Account
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Downloads
346: Downloads
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Member Screenshots
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Photo Gallery
358: Photo Gallery
359: Community Forums
360: Downloads
361: Community Forums
362: Photo Gallery
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Your Account
370: Member Screenshots
371: Home
372: Downloads
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Photo Gallery
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: News Archive
386: Photo Gallery
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Your Account
390: Community Forums
391: Home
392: Home
393: Home
394: Downloads
395: Community Forums
396: Photo Gallery
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Photo Gallery
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Home
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Photo Gallery
409: Statistics
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Downloads
420: Community Forums
421: Statistics
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Statistics
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Home
429: Home
430: Photo Gallery
431: Home
432: Community Forums
433: Downloads
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Photo Gallery
437: Community Forums
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Member Screenshots
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Member Screenshots
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Downloads
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Home
460: Home
461: Statistics
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Downloads
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Photo Gallery
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Photo Gallery
476: Statistics
477: Community Forums
478: Home
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Downloads
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Home
486: Photo Gallery
487: Photo Gallery
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Home
491: Downloads
492: Home
493: CPGlang
494: Photo Gallery
495: Community Forums
496: Home
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: News
505: Community Forums
506: Home
507: Statistics
508: Downloads
509: Photo Gallery
510: Downloads
511: Community Forums
512: Photo Gallery
513: Photo Gallery
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Home
519: Downloads
520: Community Forums
521: Photo Gallery
522: Statistics
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Statistics
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Photo Gallery
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Photo Gallery
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Home
536: Community Forums
537: Home
538: Home
539: Community Forums
540: Home
541: Photo Gallery
542: Statistics
543: Community Forums
544: Home
545: Member Screenshots
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Photo Gallery
549: Photo Gallery
550: Community Forums
551: Downloads
552: Downloads
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Photo Gallery
559: Photo Gallery
560: Photo Gallery
561: Photo Gallery
562: Statistics
563: Community Forums
564: Member Screenshots
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Downloads
573: News
574: Home
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: CPGlang
580: Community Forums
581: Downloads
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Member Screenshots
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Member Screenshots
593: Photo Gallery
594: Community Forums
595: Photo Gallery
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:36 pm
Post subject: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

Maybe someone here can help. I'm getting all kinds of conflicting information.

Back in the old Crow & Icks days it was often repeated that the M10 TD mounted an old naval 3" gun design. After several years the tide turned and the navy origins of the weapon came into disrepute. No less a figure than Phil Dyer wrote to chide me when I included the 3" gun-navy link in an old AFV News article. And on this forum members brought out the fact that the navy 3" gun and M10 3" gun have different length chambers for different shaped shell casings.

BUT, also on this board someone mentioned an anecdote about M10 TDs after Normandy using clandestinely obtained 3" navy star shells in the direct fire role! And a book I'm now reading on the TD force states outright that the M10 got the 3" gun because the U.S. submarine force was transitioning from its old 3" to 4" deck guns. And I must admit a navy 3" gun I spotted on gate guardian display really really did look like the M10 TD's weapon.

So, what gives? Is the old Crow & Icks era M10 = navy gun idea coming back? Anyone care to venture an opinion about the differencs in chambering?
Back to top
View user's profile
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

The usual given lineage for 3" Gun M7, used in the M10 Gun Motor Carriage was from the Army's 3" AAA weapon, which was developed in the 1920's and was in service early into WW2. It was supplanted in the AAA role by the 90mm Gun M1. It might be that the services actually cooperated and developed a gun that could use each others' ammo (that level of cooperation would be surprising). One argument in favor of this is that AAA was under the auspices of the Coast Artillery who were more used to dealing with naval-type weapons and ammo.

I certainly can't claim expertise, but I DO know that the Navy had several 3" caliber weapons in use by WW1. The Army's 3" AA gun MIGHT have been evelpoed with or from the Navy's gun. There were numerous variation on the Navy 3" gun, see;

www.navweaps.com/Weapo...k10-22.htm

This is part of a nice site on naval ordnance thru the years.
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

As to the differing chambers, I wonder if the old 3" naval (AAA?) chamber might have been rebored for shorter bottle-shaped rounds for easier tank stowage. [Ooops -edited. It seems from the message the naval gun had a WIDER shell casing, not narrower. So much for reboring].


Last edited by mike_Duplessis on Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

- mike_Duplessis
Maybe someone here can help. I'm getting all kinds of conflicting information.

Back in the old Crow & Icks days it was often repeated that the M10 TD mounted an old naval 3" gun design. After several years the tide turned and the navy origins of the weapon came into disrepute. No less a figure than Phil Dyer wrote to chide me when I included the 3" gun-navy link in an old AFV News article. And on this forum members brought out the fact that the navy 3" gun and M10 3" gun have different length chambers for different shaped shell casings.

BUT, also on this board someone mentioned an anecdote about M10 TDs after Normandy using clandestinely obtained 3" navy star shells in the direct fire role! And a book I'm now reading on the TD force states outright that the M10 got the 3" gun because the U.S. submarine force was transitioning from its old 3" to 4" deck guns. And I must admit a navy 3" gun I spotted on gate guardian display really really did look like the M10 TD's weapon.

So, what gives? Is the old Crow & Icks era M10 = navy gun idea coming back? Anyone care to venture an opinion about the differencs in chambering?


Well, according to Tony Williams site, the 76.2 x 585R cartridge case with a 103mm rim diameter was used in:

- 3" M1902 coast gun,
- 3" M1918, M1, M3 AA guns
- 3" M5 + M7 AT guns
- 3" M6 tank gun

US 76.2mm L/50 naval guns used a 76.2 x 585 to 594R cartridge case with a 111mm rim diameter.

It would seem that the 3" M1902 Coastal Gun fired a 15 pound round, which may be significant because in Hogg (ed): "The American Arsenal" it says about the M1918 AA gun that the design was based on a 3" (15 pdr.) Gun M1898 which seems to be another piece of coastal artillery.
The naval guns, on the other hand, seems to have fired a slightly lighter projectile of about 13 pounds. There also seems to be differences in the rifling, the M7 guns and its predecessors having one twist in 40 calibers, the naval guns having a 1 in 25.
So the naval gun and the anti-tank gun are simply not the same, which should remove any possibility that the M10s were ever armed with ex-submarine guns.

As for the use of navy star shells, the reason might be that the navy also used anti-aircraft guns from which the M7 gun originated. Or it may be that hey obtained the 3" shells and paired them with the proper cartridge.
I dont think the cartridge size would allow the use of the naval cartridge in the M7 anti-tank gun and vice versa.

If the M7 anti-tank gun has a naval background, it would be if the M1898/M1902 coastal guns originated in the 3" naval gun, which seems to have been made at the same time. But one may then question what "design" actually means, as both the cartridge and the gun was different between the two.

What book on TDs are you currently reading - perhaps it just got the info off the old Icks & Crow?

Claus B
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

To help stir the pot, here's a sharp photo of a U.S. 3" AA gun breech and its round around 1941.

The book on TDs that I'm reading is "The Tank Killers" by Yeide. It was published in '05 and is filled with oherwise authoritative sounding detail. I tend to believe a book until I stub my toe on an obviously wrong factoid - so far so good with this book.

Back to top
View user's profile
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

Don't let that take away from Mr. Yeide's book. He just wasn't into the minutae of where the gun came from. 3" is often a caliber associated with the Navy (at least in US terms), so the connection is easily drawn.
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

I looked at Yeide's book last night

"A converted 3-inch (76mm) converted antiaircraft gun was mounted in an open top turret... A large number of 3-inch guns were available because they were being replaced on submarines by 5-inch models and in antiaircraft units with 90mm guns. "

It is footnoted "Telephone interview with John Hudson, May 2002. Gill, 17."

John Hudson is identified elsewhere as a Tank Destroyer Platoon Leader.

Gill is further identified as

Lonnie Gill, Tank Destroyer Forces, WWII (Paducah, Kentucky: Turner Publishing Company, 1992)


According to Norman Friedman in U.S. Submarines Through 1945: An Illustrated Design History The replacement of 3" guns with larger ones was not approved until June of 1942 and even then it was only 'afterthe fact' with 4" guns coming off decommisioned S-boats (Those guns were WWI or 1920s vintage) The 5" guns came even later and also were initially guns removed from other ships 5"/51 cal guns from the secondary batteries removed from Battleships and 5"/25 cal old AA guns that had been replaced in surface ships with 5"/38 guns were mounted. They were desired not for AA use but for antisurface use when Subs started doing more surface action late in the war

For thos not familiar with Friedman. I think of his 'Illustrated Design History' series in the same catagory as Hunnicutt

Mr Yeide lives in the Washington D.C. area according to his bio. I've thought about contacting him to try and get my copies of his books signed. Maybe I'll see if he still goes along with the ex-naval gun idea.

I'll put in a plug for his 'Steel Victory' book about the independent tank battalions in Europe. I think it covers what had been a large gap in the story of armor units in WWII

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

Hi all,

It may have been on another topic altogether, but I recall a similar discussion on the old board. My memory is of a discussion regarding the 75mm or 76mm ammunition for the M4 tank (maybe the Firefly version?). The expert consensus was that the tankers took the projectiles from the Navy and put them into cartridge cases that fit the tank's gun.

Perhaps a similar situation resulted in star shells for the 3" TD guns?

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

- C_Sherman
Hi all,

It may have been on another topic altogether, but I recall a similar discussion on the old board. My memory is of a discussion regarding the 75mm or 76mm ammunition for the M4 tank (maybe the Firefly version?). The expert consensus was that the tankers took the projectiles from the Navy and put them into cartridge cases that fit the tank's gun.

Perhaps a similar situation resulted in star shells for the 3" TD guns?

C
I remember a discussion a while back about the Marines on one of the Pacific Islands running into a shortage of either M4 75mm ammo or 75mm Pack Howitzer ammo and repackaging projectiles and charges from one into brass form the other. I think Oscar Gilbert or Ken Estes was the source

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 2:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

I've had a problem all along with the "converted artillery/AA/naval weapon" idea. The gun cradle for the 3" gun on the M10 has twin recoil cylinders mounded either side of the barrel. You can see from the AA gun photo above that that recoil was a single attachment to the top of the breech! It looks to me like it might use the same ammo casings and maybe the same 3" barrel (not including the breech) but everthing else looks to be be new. That's like saying the howitzer on the M8 HMC was a 'converted' 75mm pack howitzer gun. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a common parts list for those two weapons.

I guess it all depends on what one means by 'converted'. I'm reminded of the story of grandpa's trusty hammer. Grandpa's hammer was indestructable, used continuously for 50 years without a problem, had to replace the handle three times and the head twice but it kept on going.
Back to top
View user's profile
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Okay, so WAS the M10's 3" gun from the Navy?

I'm not in Ordnance, but it was my impression that the GUN is the barrel and breech, while the MOUNT includes the recoil and training parts. I can't speak for the breech, but there is reference to the 3" gun M7 using the barrel of the 3" AA gun. A similar process was used to mate the barrel of the 3" AA gun to the breech and mount of the 105mm howitzer to create the towed 3" AT gun.

By the way, if I remember my TM (it's been a while since I read it) the barrel and breech of the 75mm howitzer in the M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage WAS from the pack howitzer. There were converted barrels with a key added to fit the mount and new production barrels with the key integral (so I suppose those last were NOT converted guns - so we're BOTH right). The manual mentioned the parts differences.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum