±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 675
Total: 675
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Member Screenshots
10: Community Forums
11: Downloads
12: Home
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Downloads
16: Community Forums
17: Downloads
18: Photo Gallery
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Photo Gallery
22: Statistics
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: CPGlang
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Member Screenshots
34: Your Account
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Search
38: Photo Gallery
39: CPGlang
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Home
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Photo Gallery
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: Home
58: Downloads
59: Community Forums
60: News
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Downloads
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Statistics
68: Downloads
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Downloads
72: Photo Gallery
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Photo Gallery
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Home
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Member Screenshots
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: CPGlang
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Member Screenshots
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: CPGlang
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Member Screenshots
106: Photo Gallery
107: Photo Gallery
108: Home
109: Home
110: Home
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Community Forums
123: Your Account
124: CPGlang
125: Photo Gallery
126: News
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Statistics
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Photo Gallery
137: Photo Gallery
138: Community Forums
139: Photo Gallery
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Downloads
144: Downloads
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Photo Gallery
155: Downloads
156: News
157: Home
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Downloads
164: Community Forums
165: Downloads
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: CPGlang
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: Community Forums
175: Photo Gallery
176: Downloads
177: Home
178: Photo Gallery
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Downloads
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Statistics
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Downloads
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: CPGlang
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: CPGlang
201: Photo Gallery
202: Photo Gallery
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Downloads
211: Photo Gallery
212: Photo Gallery
213: Home
214: Community Forums
215: Downloads
216: Community Forums
217: Your Account
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Community Forums
221: Home
222: Home
223: Downloads
224: Home
225: Downloads
226: Community Forums
227: Photo Gallery
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Downloads
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: News
239: Home
240: Community Forums
241: Downloads
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Photo Gallery
246: Community Forums
247: News Archive
248: Photo Gallery
249: Downloads
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Home
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Home
256: Member Screenshots
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: CPGlang
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: Photo Gallery
272: Downloads
273: Community Forums
274: Home
275: Downloads
276: Downloads
277: Downloads
278: Community Forums
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Downloads
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: Home
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Downloads
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Photo Gallery
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Photo Gallery
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: News
321: Photo Gallery
322: Photo Gallery
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Photo Gallery
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Photo Gallery
329: Member Screenshots
330: Community Forums
331: Home
332: Photo Gallery
333: Photo Gallery
334: Community Forums
335: Member Screenshots
336: Photo Gallery
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: Photo Gallery
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Photo Gallery
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Downloads
349: Community Forums
350: Photo Gallery
351: Downloads
352: Photo Gallery
353: Downloads
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Downloads
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Downloads
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: CPGlang
368: Home
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Home
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: CPGlang
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Member Screenshots
389: CPGlang
390: Photo Gallery
391: Photo Gallery
392: Community Forums
393: CPGlang
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Photo Gallery
401: Community Forums
402: Downloads
403: Downloads
404: CPGlang
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Photo Gallery
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Your Account
412: Downloads
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Home
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Photo Gallery
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Downloads
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Downloads
430: Photo Gallery
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Downloads
435: Community Forums
436: Downloads
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: CPGlang
441: Photo Gallery
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: CPGlang
447: Community Forums
448: Member Screenshots
449: Home
450: Community Forums
451: Member Screenshots
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Photo Gallery
457: Downloads
458: Photo Gallery
459: Downloads
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Downloads
463: Community Forums
464: CPGlang
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Home
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Home
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: News Archive
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Downloads
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Your Account
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Photo Gallery
498: Photo Gallery
499: Photo Gallery
500: Member Screenshots
501: Photo Gallery
502: Downloads
503: Photo Gallery
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Your Account
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Home
511: Community Forums
512: CPGlang
513: Community Forums
514: Photo Gallery
515: Home
516: News Archive
517: Community Forums
518: Downloads
519: Community Forums
520: CPGlang
521: Downloads
522: Home
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Photo Gallery
529: Your Account
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Home
537: Community Forums
538: Member Screenshots
539: Member Screenshots
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Photo Gallery
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: CPGlang
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: News Archive
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Home
556: Photo Gallery
557: Community Forums
558: Home
559: Photo Gallery
560: Statistics
561: Community Forums
562: Your Account
563: Home
564: Your Account
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Home
568: Search
569: Home
570: Downloads
571: CPGlang
572: CPGlang
573: CPGlang
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Home
577: Downloads
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Downloads
581: Community Forums
582: Photo Gallery
583: Community Forums
584: Downloads
585: Downloads
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: Community Forums
590: Downloads
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Downloads
594: News
595: Community Forums
596: Your Account
597: News
598: Community Forums
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Photo Gallery
603: Community Forums
604: Photo Gallery
605: Home
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: News
609: Home
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Photo Gallery
613: Home
614: Home
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Photo Gallery
620: Community Forums
621: Downloads
622: Photo Gallery
623: Community Forums
624: Member Screenshots
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Photo Gallery
628: Community Forums
629: Photo Gallery
630: Downloads
631: Community Forums
632: CPGlang
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: CPGlang
636: Community Forums
637: Home
638: Downloads
639: Community Forums
640: Downloads
641: Member Screenshots
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Statistics
645: Home
646: Photo Gallery
647: Community Forums
648: Downloads
649: Downloads
650: Photo Gallery
651: Home
652: Photo Gallery
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Your Account
656: Home
657: Downloads
658: Community Forums
659: Photo Gallery
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Photo Gallery
665: Community Forums
666: Home
667: Downloads
668: News
669: Photo Gallery
670: Community Forums
671: Downloads
672: Community Forums
673: Photo Gallery
674: Downloads
675: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Skeet
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:12 pm
Post subject: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

The Abrams carries a 120 mm non-rifled cannon. I understand the non-rifled cannon allows a shaped charge projectile to function better, but it also seems to be able to hit targets waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there.

How's it do that?
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

Skeet,
I can name two basic changes. Modern fire control systems that compensate for variables such as Range, Air Temp, Barometric pressure, Ammo temp, Cant, Lead, etc. coupled with ballistic solutions that can be calculated for individual type rounds within 1 meter using this data. All is done with the gunner pressing a lase button. The other is that almost all modern tank rounds are fin stabilized and do not need to be spun to stay accurate. Even the old 105mm rifled guns eventually fired primarily fin stabilzed rounds. Quality of production also reduces round to round dispersion within round types allowing longer more accurate engagements too. I guess that makes three. I can write pages of what has been done in the last 30 years to improve accuracy, but basically what modern electronics has done for automobiles pretty much applies to tanks.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

I dimmly recall in the early 80s someone (the British?) held a competition to see which gun they were going to choose for their next generation tank. They used the standard 105mm gun as a baseline for comparison, firing its APFSDS round. To everyone's horror the 105mm solidly outperformed all the modern technology 120mm contenders as far as accuracy went. It seems even with driving bands a 105mm APFSDS round would still be given a slight rotation. Apparently this was enough to turn any tendency to drift into a corkscrew path as the dart flew downrange. - I hope I'm recalling this story correctly.

Rheinmetall in particular didn't like the results of those tests. It's possible this embarrassment in trials drove much of the insane standards in modern fire controls. Everything from tube wear to weather to propellant temperature is thrown into the mix.
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

I have a dumb question.
I read somewhere how when firing the Russian 125mm gun the ballistics calculations are adjusted according to propellant temps. I also read somewhere that one flavor of Merkava or another includes temperature-controlled ammo storage to maximize performance (or more accurately, to avoid degradation). At least at one point Israeli 120mm gun ammo was quite temp-sensitive.

Here's the dumb question - What about Abrams? How do they monitor propellant temps? Is that rear turret bustle temp-controlled at all? or is it monitored by a themostat in order to automatically adjust ballistics computations? I believe for T-72s they'd simply take an air temp reading in the morning and use those calculations all day (yesterday was -8 c, today its +40 c).
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

- mike_Duplessis
....Here's the dumb question - What about Abrams? How do they monitor propellant temps? Is that rear turret bustle temp-controlled at all? or is it monitored by a themostat in order to automatically adjust ballistics computations? I believe for T-72s they'd simply take an air temp reading in the morning and use those calculations all day (yesterday was -8 c, today its +40 c).


No such thing as a dumb question....

Actually there is an ammo temp gauge in the turret. One simply input temp into FCS and the 'little hamsters in the white box' ( Shocked - Just kidding on the hamsters...) calculates the ballistic solution with all inputed info.

Ammo 'wells' seem to run much cooler than crew compartment. Ammo doors block out residual heat from turret & outside.

Many times (as am M-1, IPM-1, & M1A1 gunner) I remember temps in ammo wells running in 100-120 degree range. Ft Polk actually seemed to be the worst.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

- mike_Duplessis
I dimmly recall in the early 80s someone (the British?) held a competition to see which gun they were going to choose for their next generation tank. They used the standard 105mm gun as a baseline for comparison, firing its APFSDS round. To everyone's horror the 105mm solidly outperformed all the modern technology 120mm contenders as far as accuracy went. It seems even with driving bands a 105mm APFSDS round would still be given a slight rotation. Apparently this was enough to turn any tendency to drift into a corkscrew path as the dart flew downrange. - I hope I'm recalling this story correctly.

Rheinmetall in particular didn't like the results of those tests. It's possible this embarrassment in trials drove much of the insane standards in modern fire controls. Everything from tube wear to weather to propellant temperature is thrown into the mix.


Mike

In 1988 'we' had some serious problems with the 120mm ammo. Initially it was packaged, shipped, and delivered in wooden crates like the 105 ammo. This caused serious preformance reliability problems.

When 'we' were doing CAT 89 train up, we found that round to round dispersion was way off the scale. 'Our' goal was to hit a coke can at 1500m. With the first generation (training) Sabot, it was difficult to hit the Screening panels at 1500m with more than one round, let alone a coke can.

After 'much pain' it was finally determined that the ammo was at fault. This is about the time that the sealed 'catacomb' containers made their appearence.

Voila!!! We started screening and hitting a 12 inch 'bulls-eye' at 1500m, round after round.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:33 am
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

Hey Dontos,
Yeah, there were some issues with the old M865 anyway when it first came out. With the newer PA-116 (I think that's what they're called)containers you probably got the newer M865IP (PIP) or whatever they called it then. We used to have to ID it from the older ones by the groves cut in the petals. Both had the same ID and DODIC. I think we are on our 4th or 5th connotation of the M865 now.
Mike, gotta remember that unless you are firing service ammunition results may vary. Training ammo has to be good but the other factor is cost as opposed to service rounds where money doesn't factor in that much. I can believe the 105 was more accurate during the test just because the rounds for the 120mm were not a mature of a system at that time. My experience with 105 training APDS compared to 120 training APCSDS was that the 105 seemed more accurate. I will tell you when they screened service rounds in Kuwait prior to the war (OIF) the results we most impressive, especially the shot groups. 1st UK didn't screen, they zero'd using L29 and then switched to L27 CHARM. Fired a lot more ammo but I personally believed they had a more accurate final result. They do have some impressive long range gunnery ability.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:04 am
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

PIP...thats it.

I believe it had a lot number of '88F' the only APCSDS-T that we were allowed to use.

In the days prior, (CAT89) we zeroed every different lot we got. 5 rounds. Fire 3 at 'bull', determine MPI, toggle adjust, then fire 2 confirmation rounds. No 'Fleet Zero' for us.

(I still have my zero data from May - June 89.... I'm NOT a 'pack-rat' damn it!!!) Laughing

Of course, that was 'E-ONS' ago.... Cool


_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:30 am
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

Dontos,
I still think that zeroing is better than screening Smile , but of course money talks Rolling Eyes . The theory is that if all tanks were made and maintained to a equal level of quality and the ammunition was constructed within certain tolerences than one could reasonably expect the same firing results across the board. Screening just verifies that the tank and ammo meet these tolerances. It may not be the most accurate but the standard is 2 rounds within the circle of the ST-5 panel (formerly ST-4 octogon). If it can accomplish this it meets the accuracy requirements. The problem with zeroing is you can potentially hide a maintenance problem Sad . Just because you can adjust the reticle to get a bulls eye at 1500 meters doesn't mean you can do the same thing at 1000 or 2000. The FCS could be flawed and not correctly calculate the ballistic solution. All you accomplished was make it hit at 1500 meters standing still. Other factors are also mechanical. It can be very frustrating with older systems Evil or Very Mad .That's the reason why Master Gunner's look the way they do on a range. But..., if the tank is good and the ammo is good, zeroing is far more accurate Wink . All comments made are my personal opinion and do not reflect any official doctrin or procedures

Enjoy the Armor conference
Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Skeet
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 10:00 am
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

Thanks folks.

In reply to another question I made, this link was provided:

www.globalsecurity.org...m830a1.htm

That pretty much answers my question. I didn't know that that all the 120mm rounds were fin stabilized.

Interesting idea about using that round being used on helicopters. I wouldn't think you could bring a 120 mm to bear on such a target.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 6:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

HI Skeet! Hi Folks!

- Skeet

Interesting idea about using that round being used on helicopters. I wouldn't think you could bring a 120 mm to bear on such a target.


That idea has been around for bit. The MPAT round makes it work a lot better.

Sometime around 1972-73, when I was stationed at Hunter Liggett Military Reservation, the unit I was in conducted a test to see if it was possible for Soviet Tanks to engage US Cobra Attack Helicopters firing Sabot ammo. The unit had five platoons of M60A1 tanks which were fitted with a Soviet type of sight retinal. Using the Great Grand Father version of the system used now days at the NTC, it was learned that Soivet's Tanks using Sabot could not hit a moving Cobra most of the time.

After the test was over, then some one asked the question, "Can US tankers using our current FCS and Sabot, hit a Soviet gunship"? Back to range with the nomal sight retianls reinstalled. It was found that our system could nail a hovering or slowly moving helo. Last I heard of that test program was they where going someplace else to try and learn how much damage a Sabot round could do to a helicopter. I wonder if somewhere in the developement of MPAT round, those old tests had anything to do with it's design?

Some of my old history.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

I recall reading somewhere (warning, I may be remembering this all wrong) that German tanks were slated to get a 'dual-purpose' laser rangefinder for combatting helicopters. I believe the article said - and I'm really shakey on this info - that a laser reflection can give multiple range returns due to laser scatter. A standard ground combat rangefinder will, I think, discard all but the last return. This is the opposite of what you want for a helicopter which would be primary laser return followed by background clutter. So I think the article said the German rangefinders had a switch that would allow either accepting last or first laser return depending on the target type.

What this implies is a helicopter close enough to be within the APFSDS dart's flat trajectory would be dead meat, but if ballistics calculations are involved (beyond 2500m?) then hit probability may be hindered by the ground-optimized ranging equipment.

Any REAL tankers willing to help me on this?
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Abrams, 120 mm cannon accuracy?

- mike_Duplessis
I recall reading somewhere (warning, I may be remembering this all wrong) that German tanks were slated to get a 'dual-purpose' laser rangefinder for combatting helicopters. I believe the article said - and I'm really shakey on this info - that a laser reflection can give multiple range returns due to laser scatter. A standard ground combat rangefinder will, I think, discard all but the last return. This is the opposite of what you want for a helicopter which would be primary laser return followed by background clutter. So I think the article said the German rangefinders had a switch that would allow either accepting last or first laser return depending on the target type.

What this implies is a helicopter close enough to be within the APFSDS dart's flat trajectory would be dead meat, but if ballistics calculations are involved (beyond 2500m?) then hit probability may be hindered by the ground-optimized ranging equipment.

Any REAL tankers willing to help me on this?


Mike

I 'used' to be a REAL Tanker, so I'll try to take a stab at explaining this....

The Abrams LRF has dual settings for '1st return' & 'Last return'.

If lasing on a target on a hill top (or in the air) with a limited possibility of any obstructions then this means the LRF will give a range to the actual target.

Many times multiple range returns are noted due to tree limbs, grass, (etc) that are in the line of sight between the tank and the intended target. When in 'Last Return' the indexed range should be the target you are lying the reticle on.

There is a 'multiple range return' bar in the symbology of the GPS which lets the gunner know that more than one range return has been received. Its up to him to assess if the indexed range seems appropriate.

Hope this helps,
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum