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Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Dirk
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:10 am
Post subject: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

Used Adobe Photoshop to grab following two frames from a vid clip I downloaded.

Image 1

What%20120mm%20ammo%20is%20being%20loaded%20? Image%202 (Had%20to%20flip%20this%20image%20!%20)

What ammo is loaded in the ready racks ? Note lettering on base of 120mm shell.

Thanks - Great forum

Dirk
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:42 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

That looks like HEAT being loaded since it is blue I figure it is an inert training round. Should they be handling it like that? (by the standoff probe). The ready round is 'Target Practice, Tracer'

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Last edited by bsmart on Tue May 23, 2006 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:46 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

Is that HEAT round being loaded blue? (I have weird color vision)...if so, it may be a TP-T round (a training round, as Bob correctly notes) in HEAT configuration.
How standardized are the colors, internationally, for various types of rounds?
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

I just edited my answer to add my thought about the blue color. I think at least within NATO the colors are pretty much standardized ( I know in the Air Forces they were) and Blue was pretty standard for 'INERT'. Looking at the base of the ready round it looks like their stock came from the same source as NATO stuff (Not surprising actually)

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C_Sherman
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:59 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

Looks like standard training (target practice) HEAT ammo to me. The lettering is standard, and the M-number indicates type standardized ammo used by the US and by extension NATO. Too bad we can't see the rest of that base cap in the second picture..."Made In...?"

The blue is standard for training ammo of all types, indicating inert fillers or non-explosive projectiles. 105mm HEAT training ammo was always marked at TP-T. Sabot training ammo was always marked TPDS-T...when I was around it.

The "-T" is actually kind of funny, because I've never seen or heard of any modern tank ammo that didn't have a tracer in it! Then again, standard markings are standard...and changing ANY NATO standard, even for paper size, is a major undertaking.

C

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:16 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

- C_Sherman

The "-T" is actually kind of funny, because I've never seen or heard of any modern tank ammo that didn't have a tracer in it! Then again, standard markings are standard...and changing ANY NATO standard, even for paper size, is a major undertaking.

C


Canister. Sorry Chuck, just had to say it.
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Dirk
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

- C_Sherman
Too bad we can't see the rest of that base cap in the second picture..."Made In...?"


Not able to grab the frame where one could see this 'Made In.....'. , the loader or gunner (?) is in the way Neutral
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:50 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a way to look up the 'OR104F158H002' and get the plant name, batch number, date it was produced and maybe even the QA person's name! The information is out there somewhere.

It may even have been on that Disk with my SSN and date of birth that got stolen from the VA employee!

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:01 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

Both are training HEAT.

As for handling, thats pretty much standard.

Although its prefered to cradle the round with hands around the base of the projectile and covering the 'aft cap' primer.

Don
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Sabot
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

Quick google search of the M831A1 shows that they are made in the good old USA (page 6, third paragraph down): www.dtic.mil/techtrans...ndices.pdf

Handling is standard. The size and weight of the 120mm make handling by the aft cap primer too uncumbersome.

Even though the training HEAT round is just a big chunk of aluminum, it is still a very potent projectile travelling at Mach 3.

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mike_Duplessis
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

I'm reminded of an old old poster for one of those embarrassing Rambo movie. There's musclebound scowling Johhny Rambo with an M60 mg in his hands and double ammo bandoliers across his chest like a later-day Pancho Villa. Looks very mean and dangerous, until you notice the little blue-painted tips on the belted rounds. Blue? Training? BUSTED!
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

- Sabot
Quick google search of the M831A1 shows that they are made in the good old USA (page 6, third paragraph down): www.dtic.mil/techtrans...ndices.pdf

Handling is standard. The size and weight of the 120mm make handling by the aft cap primer too uncumbersome.

Even though the training HEAT round is just a big chunk of aluminum, it is still a very potent projectile travelling at Mach 3.


I thought that lifting it by the standoff rod might be frowned upon. I figured that the training round would be sturdy enough 'to get away with it' but that a live round might not be as strong at that point and it would be a bad habit to get into.

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JG300-Ascout
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

- mike_Duplessis
I'm reminded of an old old poster for one of those embarrassing Rambo movie. There's musclebound scowling Johhny Rambo with an M60 mg in his hands and double ammo bandoliers across his chest like a later-day Pancho Villa. Looks very mean and dangerous, until you notice the little blue-painted tips on the belted rounds. Blue? Training? BUSTED!


Normally, uttering the "G" word is enough to put you over the edge, but when you invoke the "R" word, well....that's totally beyond the pale. Only the qualifier "embarrassing" immediately before it is probably what's saving you from the wrath of the Com-Central Secret Tribunal. Still, your vivid, sweaty imagry is in the poorest of taste and I'll ask you not to insult our (or others') servicemen past, present, and future with even taunting references to he-who-shall-not-be-named....or I shall be forced to report you to the authorities....

Some of us may be merely flight simmers here, but we have our standards to uphold. They're low, but they're there.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation...

Wink

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Sabot
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

- bsmart
I thought that lifting it by the standoff rod might be frowned upon. I figured that the training round would be sturdy enough 'to get away with it' but that a live round might not be as strong at that point and it would be a bad habit to get into.
I saw a service HEAT round fall off of the sponson box of an M60A3 and smack the concrete motor pool surface with nothing but a slight dent on the windscreen (little aluminum hat on the rod). I did dive for cover when I saw it fall though.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:13 am
Post subject: Re: Questions on Finnish Leo 2 Ammo

- Sabot
- bsmart
I thought that lifting it by the standoff rod might be frowned upon. I figured that the training round would be sturdy enough 'to get away with it' but that a live round might not be as strong at that point and it would be a bad habit to get into.
I saw a service HEAT round fall off of the sponson box of an M60A3 and smack the concrete motor pool surface with nothing but a slight dent on the windscreen (little aluminum hat on the rod). I did dive for cover when I saw it fall though.


As a loader on an IPM1, we used to 'bounce' the rounds on the loaders skate ring during monthly ammo inventory download, in Germany.

I had two service HEAT rounds that if you attempted to lift them by the 'rod' the projectile would slide out of the casing!! Shocked ( I actually did that once!! Shocked )

When we transitioned to M1A1's the ammo inspector (from USAREUR) was amazed at the terrible condition of the service ammo. It turns out that the 105mm ammo we had, had been on the M60A3's prior to getting the IPM1's years before.

Handling ammo became a whole different 'animal' with the 120mm. Several 'split rounds' convinced the 'power that be' to keep our service ammo in the bunkers, crated up. Instead of being uploaded on the tanks.

'Memories.....'
Don

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