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Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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servicepub
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:28 am
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

clive @ servicepub.com
Photo is already posted at ramtank.ca, click on Ram Survivors. Thanks
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:50 am
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

Just sent you the pics via email....
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:19 am
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

Is this not a great display area? Very tasteful and not a lot of clutter:
Dutch%20AMX%20from%20the%20front: ...and%20overhead.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:29 am
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

- Doug_Kibbey

Hereby to be known as the "Gavin-Lingle" (by me, anyway), I took some shots of the YPR-765 family (this may be a later version...I'm not an expert). The more I examined this vehicle, the more I wonder if we missed the boat on a satisfactory M113-M114-XM800 scout vehicle (prior to the Bradley) in a tight package. The closer I look, the more appealing this vehicle is. I don't know the service record, but I should think there would have been a role for this in our service, at least at one time.




I have to agree with you about a possible scout vehicle. Razz I remember the Army looked at a number of modified M113s and I think in the end all the testing came down to not enough money to do much. Sad What little the Scouts did get when into the XM800 project Razz Razz and as we all know, that ended up being cancelled also due to a lack of funds Crying or Very sad and other B.S. excesses. Evil or Very Mad

Again thanks for the great photos!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

It is a YPR-765PRI (Pantser Rups Infanterie), could be the normal infantry variant or a recce one which has an other arrangement of seats in the back.

For the recce units this verhicle was a interim solution awaiting the arrival of a new recce verhicle which finally arrived in december 2005 at 11 tkbat in form of the Fennek.

When the wind was good you could hear the ''enemy'' scouts leaving the assembly area because of the high pitch noise the engine made.

Other variants (past and present)of the YPR are;
YPR-765PRCO C1, C2, C3 and C4
YPR-765PRBDR (Battle damage repair)
YPR-765PRV (cargo, for the supply sgt)
YPR-765PRGWT (for the medic)
YPR-765PRMR (with a mortar behind it and racks for the ammo inside)
YPR-765PRRDR (with a battlefield surveillance radar, not in use anymore)
And a variant for the military police

Regards,
Lesley
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

- L.Delsing
It is a YPR-765PRI (Pantser Rups Infanterie), could be the normal infantry variant or a recce one which has an other arrangement of seats in the back.

For the recce units this verhicle was a interim solution awaiting the arrival of a new recce verhicle which finally arrived in december 2005 at 11 tkbat in form of the Fennek.

When the wind was good you could hear the ''enemy'' scouts leaving the assembly area because of the high pitch noise the engine made.

Other variants (past and present)of the YPR are;
YPR-765PRCO C1, C2, C3 and C4
YPR-765PRBDR (Battle damage repair)
YPR-765PRV (cargo, for the supply sgt)
YPR-765PRGWT (for the medic)
YPR-765PRMR (with a mortar behind it and racks for the ammo inside)
YPR-765PRRDR (with a battlefield surveillance radar, not in use anymore)
And a variant for the military police

Regards,
Lesley


Thanks, Lesley...I'm looking for more background on this vehicle...a good design, I think, that got passed by without the consideration it deserves.

Oh, I got to eyeball two prototype Fenneks...one in good shape, the other worn slap out and ratty inside. Quite an interesting vehicle. I have one interior shot of the driver area (through the thick glass) that leaves a lot to be desired. I lust to drive one of these, though.

BTW, I got to poke around in a Leo 2A6 on the same trip...couldn't take any pics, but was generally impressed. One thing that's difficult to convey to other tankers, past and present, is the "compactness of size" of the crew area for the gunner and TC. Hoo-Boy!....it's mighty-tighty in thar'! The restraining bar for the gunner was interesting...I wouldn't have thought he had that much room to bounce around anyway (I was reminded of amusement park rides...."You must be this tall....or thin...to ride this ride"). The loader's area is small, compared to the old Pattons, but the right side of this vehicle is smaller than any other AFV I've ever been on. Like the Abrams, the turret size on the outside is NO indication of the amenities inside! I wish I had pics, but understandably that was forbidden.
Me likey, though! Wink

Here is the Leopard driver simulator:
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Hellfish6
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

- Doug_Kibbey
- Hellfish6
I still think Centurions are the coolest tanks ever.


Well, just for you, then.... Smile


Cheers!
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

- Doug_Kibbey
- Hellfish6
I still think Centurions are the coolest tanks ever.


Well, just for you, then.... Smile




A Centurion pillbox ???
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
- Doug_Kibbey
- Hellfish6
I still think Centurions are the coolest tanks ever.


Well, just for you, then.... Smile


A%20Centurion%20pillbox%20???
Nahhh...just%20a%20static%20display.%20But%20only%20my%20good%20manners%20as%20a%20guest%20prevented%20me%20from%20demanding%20the%20CO%20explain%20why%20he%20doesn't%20have%20some%20one%20with%20a%20leaf%20blower,%20or%20at%20least%20a%20broom,%20follow%20the%20guys%20who%20mow%20the%20grass.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:28 am
Post subject: Re: God save us from ambivalent curators

- Doug_Kibbey


Nahhh...just a static display. But only my good manners as a guest prevented me from demanding the CO explain why he doesn't have some one with a leaf blower, or at least a broom, follow the guys who mow the grass.



It's not my museum ... but I hate to see any artifact dying of neglect.

The problem with a ground level mount will be the accumulation of water and surface rust along the bottom edges. The paint will flake and then serious rust will form. Any components that were in good condition (which of course the Dutch tankers can testify) will deteriorate rapidly. Not only do the grass clippings and mower scuffs harm the paint, but snow and ice drifts 3 or 4 months of the year.

Give the museum credit for making it a kid's level climbing gym, but the historical value of a Centurion turret will be lost in a few years (if it hasn't already). I'd encourage the museum to cut down the sloped edge of the mound to elevate the turret ring 20 or 25cm above the grade level. Even facing the slope with brick will keep the soil drier.

No doubt the current management has bigger problems, it is important for them to know that artifacts that are readily available one decade are suddenly quite scarce in only a few generations. (How much effort has been invested just in Sherman rebuilds in the last decade?) People tend to abuse military exhibits as a matter of course; would a Dutch gallery treat an Old Masters painting the same way?
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:08 am
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

I don't know the history of this particular vehicle, but current management's attitude toward it might be influenced by the fact that they have at least three intact Cents (that I know about, having seen them) at the same installation. I think I recall Marcel saying something about this having been part of a whole display that was rendered redundant with the acquisition of the pristine example now housed indoors (which was apparently seized from a private party that somehow failed to mention it to the authorities).
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:08 pm
Post subject: Re: God save us from ambivalent curators

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
- Doug_Kibbey




It's not my museum ... but I hate to see any artifact dying of neglect.

The problem with a ground level mount will be the accumulation of water and surface rust along the bottom edges. The paint will flake and then serious rust will form. Any components that were in good condition (which of course the Dutch tankers can testify) will deteriorate rapidly. Not only do the grass clippings and mower scuffs harm the paint, but snow and ice drifts 3 or 4 months of the year.

No doubt the current management has bigger problems, it is important for them to know that artifacts that are readily available one decade are suddenly quite scarce in only a few generations. (How much effort has been invested just in Sherman rebuilds in the last decade?) People tend to abuse military exhibits as a matter of course; would a Dutch gallery treat an Old Masters painting the same way?


Unfortunately I know........ Sad Two examples, one in Oirschot and one at the cavalry museum Amersfoort.

1. Since years we had an old rusty Leopard 1V at our battalion which didn't work. Some platoonsergeant with the help of the technical SM tried to restore this old tank. It was not possible because everything was rustm rust and more rust. The result of years in the rain etc. With the help of some friends of the tech SM we managed to change our old Leopard 1V for a ''brandnew'' working one from the war reserve. It was still packed with preservation grease and plastic and it worked perfect. The platoonsergeant kept this one in the same verhicle shed as the Leopard 2A5/6s to prevent rain etc coming in.

But the new battalionsadjutant (under protest of the pltsgts) decided it should be in front of the building of our battalion. Well, its now one year later and guess, it won't start anymore, the stabilisation system don't work anymore..........

2. At Amersfoort they reveived the second Leopard 2A4 which was delivered to the army (the first one we sold to Austria), also from the war reserve and in perfect working order. Instead of putting it in the hall were it is dry and safe from the elements it is outside in wind and rain. I'am afraid that within a couple of years this one will be in a very bad condition also.

Barbarians, that is what they are......

Regards,
Lesley
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

[quote="Doug_Kibbey"]
Thanks, Lesley...I'm looking for more background on this vehicle...a good design, I think, that got passed by without the consideration it deserves.

BTW, I got to poke around in a Leo 2A6 on the same trip...couldn't take any pics, but was generally impressed. One thing that's difficult to convey to other tankers, past and present, is the "compactness of size" of the crew area for the gunner and TC. Hoo-Boy!....it's mighty-tighty in thar'! The restraining bar for the gunner was interesting...I wouldn't have thought he had that much room to bounce around anyway (I was reminded of amusement park rides...."You must be this tall....or thin...to ride this ride"). The loader's area is small, compared to the old Pattons, but the right side of this vehicle is smaller than any other AFV I've ever been on. Like the Abrams, the turret size on the outside is NO indication of the amenities inside! I wish I had pics, but understandably that was forbidden.
Me likey, though! Wink

Here is the Leopard driver simulator:


Hello Doug,
Fennek is indeed a nice verhicle, our recce platoon of our battalion will be deployed in december to Uruzgan (afghanistan) with Fenneks. We will see how they function over there.

Strange that they didn't let you take pictures, on the yearly army open day whole tribes can make pictures inside, outside, you name it and it is possible.

I think I know what you mean. Years ago we had the possibility to visit the US army storage depot in Vriezeveen were they had M1A1(HA) tanks. We were amazed at the space they had inside! Stillm I have no problems inside the Leopard 2. I'am 1,93 meters and I had a gunner which was 1,90 meters and it still fit. When I close the hatch I have a centimeter left above my helmet.

During an exercise in Germany we managed to get 6 men inside the Leopard 2A5, the normal gunner, driver and commander positions and three on the loaders place. We were at an assembly area . It was very cold outside and some of the crew of an other tank of my platoon were ''visiting'' my tank. At the loadersarea one was standing and cooking macaroni with meatballs, one was sitting on the ground below the coax machinegun and one was sitting in the basket for the empty cartridges. Hatches closed and heater on, oh ja and they were all smokers.......

If possible, what photos do you like from the inside?

regards,
Lesley

P.S. It can take a week for replying because I have a small exercise in the ardennes.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Vehicles from Dutch Cavaleriemuseum-Amersfoort

- L.Delsing
Strange that they didn't let you take pictures, on the yearly army open day whole tribes can make pictures inside, outside, you name it and it is possible.

I think I know what you mean. Years ago we had the possibility to visit the US army storage depot in Vriezeveen were they had M1A1(HA) tanks. We were amazed at the space they had inside! Stillm I have no problems inside the Leopard 2. I'am 1,93 meters and I had a gunner which was 1,90 meters and it still fit. When I close the hatch I have a centimeter left above my helmet.

If possible, what photos do you like from the inside?

regards,
Lesley

P.S. It can take a week for replying because I have a small exercise in the ardennes.


Hi Lesley...
Yes, the Fennek looked to be a very capable vehicle...and beaucoup sex appeal...I was kinda' reminded of the APC in Aliens (but with actual ground clearance....) Driver's spot is very.....cozy.

I suppose they were just being cautions at the post about pics...everybody from the armor school thingy was at a big game and we were kinda' informally poking around one in a shop bay. Pity about no pics because the light was kinda' bad in there and I couldn't see much, expecially in the gunner's "cave".
Any pics from the fighting compartment would be welcome (and I bet the forum would like to see 'em too...hint-hint) No rush...I leave for Brasil again by about the 12th.

Say, I noticed two things: I didn't see anyway to manually open the breech of the main gun...is there one?
And, where is the switch for the ammo doors for the loader? It's a knee thing on the M1, but I didn't see anything similar on the Leo.

Well, whenever you get a chance (I'll PM you my email, too)

Speaking of older Leopards, there was this 'un....



Cheers!
D.
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