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Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:47 am
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

Dont ask me why there is a Warrior operating with the Paras, probably some detached firepower for them. I suppose it could be a CVR(T), its hard to tell from this grainy video (the 'Warrior' is seen at about the 1:50 mark):

news.bbc.co.uk/media/a...6x9_nb.ram



I think it's a Warrior.

Is the CVR(T) still in active service? None of my modern AFV books list it. I was only able to find photos and details in a 1976 issue of Jane's.

Interesting,
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:40 am
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

The Scimitar is:
www.army.mod.uk/equipm...av_scm.htm

Neil
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:32 am
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

- Neil_Baumgardner
In fact, has anyone deployed tanks into Afghanistan previously? I know Warriors have been deployed, but tanks?

Neil


OK, its not a tank, but the Netherlands deployed the PzH2000 at their bases in Uruzgan. They have the size of a tank.......

The ''generals'' asked for Leopards to deploy to Uruzgan but unfortunately the political leadership decided that it was too agressive. ''We'' were there to rebuild and helping the locals and not destroying it.

I think thats why they keep me in the Netherlands Wink
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Jason_Bobrowich
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:40 am
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

The British Brigade in Afghanistan is the 16th Air Assault Brigade. Very fast moving and has had one Squadron of the Household Cavalry Regiment for Recce support for the past 15 years.

I watched the video again several times and am convinced it is a Scimitar. Recognition features- low, sloped front hull, turret set back on the hull, hull stowage box extending from the hull rear.

The Scimitars in use are the Scimitar LEP(Life Extension Program). They included a whole bunch of improvements including a new thermal sight for the gunner.

I was lucky enough to command Scimitars in Bosnia as a Canadian Sgt. in 1994 during an exchange with the Light Dragoons. I was also an AFV recognition instructor while I was in the Army.

Not so say there aren't Warriors in Afghanistan, but not in that video. If anyone has any info on Warriors in Afghanistan I would like to hear and see it.
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Jason_Bobrowich
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:58 am
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

I forgot about the Dutch PZH 2000s. If I am correct they have only recently been deployed there over the last couple of months. I have seen a couple of images of a PZH 2000s in Afghanistan still in the NATO three colour cam and being used for a fire mission at FOB Martello near Kandahar. In one image there is so much desert dust on the vehicle it looks like the hull and turret sides are desert tan with the turret front, barrel, and road wheels still NATO cam.

An article I found stated there are only two PZH 2000s deployed so far. How many are slated?

Any links to images would be appreciated.
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

The Paras' battles in Sangin typify the problem that seems to be developing in Afghanistan. The NATO troops have been incredibly professional at the light infantry air-land battle. Exactly the way the doctrine was written, and the books were written.

Show up with well disciplined troops, excellent radios and supply lines, and adequate mobility. Battles are fought as meeting engagements of slogging Westerners bump into small enemy parties, maybe vectored in by comprehensive intelligence. Use Chinooks to get close, Blackhawks for CASEVAC and CAS for punch. But the Taliban seem more and more willing to stand and deliver, as the video says to the point of besieging firebases. When the defenders run out of ammo or supplies, what are their options?

The battles in Panjwayi and Zhari district look like three-fourths of a conventional war. Arty, engineers and combat infantry, but no tanks. My guess is someone in NDHQ came to that conclusion a lot earlier than I did.

The Paras look like they have .50s on their Land Rovers and 60mm mortars. They might even have 66mm M72s, but they don't look much heavier than light infantry. Not their fault, just their doctrine.
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Jason_Bobrowich
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

The Paras most likely have the LAW80...it replaced the Carl G and the M72 within the British Forces.

They are also most likely using the L2A1 (ILAW) Interim Light Anti-tank Weapon...it is the British designation for the Swedish made AT4.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

The Scimitar is:


Why didn't you say that in the first place! I had forgotten CVR(T) was a vehicle type name for the Scorpion later upgraded to the Scimitar recon tanks.

I went looking for CVR(T) in my AFV referencs and none of them had one. Once I saw the Scimitar photos in the link you provided, I was able to find it listed under the Scorpion tank.

No question on my part now, I agree that bad photo is a Scimitar. For a Warrior I was thinking that turret was a bit to far to the rear, but gave in thinking it was just part of a bad view of the vehicle.

No longer confuzed on this one. Smile
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:09 am
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

- Jason_Bobrowich
I forgot about the Dutch PZH 2000s. If I am correct they have only recently been deployed there over the last couple of months. I have seen a couple of images of a PZH 2000s in Afghanistan still in the NATO three colour cam and being used for a fire mission at FOB Martello near Kandahar. In one image there is so much desert dust on the vehicle it looks like the hull and turret sides are desert tan with the turret front, barrel, and road wheels still NATO cam.

An article I found stated there are only two PZH 2000s deployed so far. How many are slated?

Any links to images would be appreciated.


AFAIK there is one at Tarin Kowt and one at Darea Wood (spelling??) with one acting as reserve at one of these two bases. For what I have heard they have almost every day firing missions with satisfying results.

So far I didn't have seen any pictures of them.

Regards
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mike_Duplessis
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

When - if ever - has the old Leopard I seen combat? I seem to recall them rolling into ex-Yugoslavia but I wouldn't call that warfighting so much as aggressive peacekeeping.

I heard rumors a couple decades ago a dead Russian crew was pulled out of a Leopard I destroyed during fighting in... um... Somalia? Chad? I believe rumor was that the Soviets had perloined a couple Leopard Is as the vehicles were being shipped around the world in cargo ships for trade shows. They wound up somewhere in Africa undergoing combat trials. At least that was the tale.
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

Mike:

Your African Leopard was probably one of the Italian licence built copies, and it had a Libyan connection. I'd seen the same story elsewhere.
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
Mike:

Your African Leopard was probably one of the Italian licence built copies, and it had a Libyan connection. I'd seen the same story elsewhere.


It was an OF-40 - one of a number sold to Libya.

Cool

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buglerbilly
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

The Paras look like they have .50s on their Land Rovers and 60mm mortars. They might even have 66mm M72s, but they don't look much heavier than light infantry. Not their fault, just their doctrine.


The Paras don't have 60mm Mortars, they have 51mm mortars mostly used for Illumination tasks. The 40mm under-barrel grenade launchers have taken over most of the HE-flinging tasks of the 51mm.

They are also most likely using the L2A1 (ILAW) Interim Light Anti-tank Weapon...it is the British designation for the Swedish made AT4.


MBT LAW is the basis for the new British and Swedish AT launchers, but the Brits also have another system being introduced based on German "Panzerfaust" technology for the anti-material (aka Bunkers and the like) task.

Both MBT LAW and this new system fire from Enclosed Spaces if needed, in other words have minimal signature and vastly reduced backblast.

Regards,

BUG
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

I hope this works and the photo will appear below....

www.landmacht.nl/binar...-66735.jpg

A short translation of a army news message;
First time use of the PzH2000 in A-stan in Kandahar were the Dutch infantry ''took over'' the Canadian base Martello. The PzH2000 is deployed to support Canadian (and other) troops during Operation Medusa in the Panjwayi region in Kandahar.

On request of the NATO commander south A-stan the NL deployed the two PzH2000s in support of the Canadian troops

The second PzH2000 is deployed in Kandahar and ready to do fire missions.

The guns are deployed to A-stan for the NL bases in Tarin Kowt and Deh Rawod.

For the security / fire support is a mortar unit at these two bases. The PzH2000s wil take over this job in the future.

Regards
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Canadians to deploy Leopards to Afghanistan

- L.Delsing
I hope this works and the photo will appear below....

www.landmacht.nl/binar...-66735.jpg

Regards


In the small world department, my sister's father in law gets the Dutch veteran's magazine and passes them to me. I can't read a word of Dutch, but every so often there are pictures or stories that get my attention. Now that I've realized Leslie knows what the background story is, I will feel more at ease with using some of that content. (And yes, Leslie I think I remember you explaining your geneology on the old AFV New forum.)
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