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Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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worthhaggerton
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:55 am
Post subject: Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV

Hello from TX,
Maybe Scout can answer this one?

What would a TO&E for a CAV Squadron be if assign to a NG DIV?
Time frame 60's thru the 70's.

Yes I have look on the serach engines.
I might not be asking the right questions.

Thanks for your time and help.

Worth
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:13 am
Post subject: Re: Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV

disreguard

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:19 am
Post subject: Re: Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV

Hi Worth! Hi Folks!

- worthhaggerton


Maybe Scout can answer this one?

What would a TO&E for a CAV Squadron be if assign to a NG DIV?
Time frame 60's thru the 70's.


First the easy part. Time frame, In 1960, the Army converted it's divisions from the Pentomic TOE and switched to the ROAD TOE which lasted until 1986. Being National Guard, the 49th may have still been using the WW II triangular TOE for the 1943 type of armored division. The active AD didn't convert to the Pentomic TOE.

That should mean that sometime during the early 1970s, the 49th was using the ROAD H-Series (the early version) TOE.

Division Cav Sqdn would have had a Hq & Supply Troop, three Cav Troops, and one howitzer battery

Now the hard part:

The H & S Troop
I have no idea what they would have had other that all the trucks needed for hauling ammo and fuel which would have been something like 12 or more M54 6x6 5 tons. Four with refueling pods and the other eight for ammo.
A maintaince section with one five ton 6x6 wrecker and two VTRs. If the unit started with M4s, switch to M41s, they would have had M74 VTRs. If they had M48s or M60s, they would have had M88 mo-gassers. If they had ever received M551s, they should have also had the M578 VTR.

The Cav Troops

Hq & Supply Section
Pair of M38A1 jeeps for the C.O. and X.O., 3/4 ton M37 for the 1st Sgt, a 2.5 ton 6x6 with trailier for the supply sgt. A VTR, again same type as the Sqdn Level maint. section.

Three Cav Platoons with ten vehicles each.
Now for the very hard part (in other words, I may be 100% wrong, but then this is an intell report)
One infantry squad with possible a M59 APC, in time replaced with a M113. It would not surpise me if at the start of the 1970s, they may have been using a Halftrack.
One 4.2" mortar squad with possible a M84, again in time replaced with a M106. If not a M84, then a M37 3/4 which would have been used to transport the 4.2 mortar and crew.
Four scout vehicles, possible M38A1s with M2 50 cal machine guns.
Might possible have switched to M-151 jeeps with M60 machine guns.
Might have received M114s before upgrading to M113s.
Would be very surpised if they later received M3 CFV under the Div 86 TOE.
Platoon Leader's vehicle, same as what ever the scouts had.
Three tanks, May have started out with M4A3E8 76mm tanks, might have switched to M41s, then switched to M48s or M60s, then to M551s but I would be surpised if they ever got Sheridans and if they did, then switch back to M60s before upgrading to M1 Abrams under Div86 TOE. Platoon Sgt would TC one of them.

Howitzer Btry
Six 155 howitzers. They could have started out with M-114 towed 155s, could have had M-44 SP 155 Hows, in time (late 1970s, maybe 1980s)should have recieved M-109 155 SPs.

That is my best guess with what TOE info I have for the active army.
Sense the 49th was a National Guard unit, my guess is all of their equipment was one or possible two items behind the active force.
I know that as of 1973-74, the Califorina NG still had M59/M84 APCs. They were all dead lined and the Infantry Battalions had been training as straight leg infantry for a couple of years. I was in an active duty Scout Platoon with 12 M-113A1s and we were tasked to train the infantry battalions based at Camp Roberts on the M-113A1 which they has just started to receive. During that same time frame, I also was involed with some other CANG units and all of them were still using the M38A1 jeep. The Scouts jeeps carried the M2 50 cals.

Intell Report on U.S. Army TOEs 1960-1970s,
Sgt, Scouts Out!

ROAD - Reorganizaton Objectives, Army Division

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:43 am
Post subject: Re: Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV

From USACGSC RB 61-1 Refernece Book The Division Dated 15 June 1970. This lists all the organisations/TOE for divisions.

Incodentally this publication (some 350 pages) is surplus to requirements so if anyone is interested make me an offer..

Cool

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV

Hi Folks!

Interesting!

No artillery battery?
Clearly authorized M551 Sheridans and M114s.
Air Cav Troop in 1970? I didn't know that Troop went back that far. I thought that was something that was added when the HHT was split in half and the Support Troop was added?

Thanks Jim!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:49 am
Post subject: Re: Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV

There are a couple of anomolies - for instance the HHT orbat has 5 Redeye teams but there is no equipment for them listed on the extract. Maybe they were 'loaners'?

Cool

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Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
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JED Military Equipment
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:04 am
Post subject: Re: Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

There are a couple of anomolies - for instance the HHT orbat has 5 Redeye teams but there is no equipment for them listed on the extract. Maybe they were 'loaners'?


I wouldn't think 'loaners' would be listed on the equipment list of a TOE document. The normal practice used in a line diagram is for attached units to be shown with a broken line. If you are looking at a line diagram and the Redeye section is connected with a solid line, then their equipment is in that list somewhere.

The large number (20) of 1/4 Ton 4x4s with 1/4 ton (9) trailiers should include their vehicles. When I was with the 1st Bn 30th Inf in Germany, that is how the Redeye section was mounted.
I noticed that the number of 50 cal machine guns looks odd. The number listed sounds like ring mounts for the trucks because they are listed as flex mounted and don't list tripods. The ones that would be mounted on the APCs, Mortar carriers, full tracked VTRs and possible M114A0 or M114A1s are not included in the count.

Interesting numbers. Confused
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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worthhaggerton
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Updated Question on 49th ARM DIV CAV

Hello from Austin,
I want to thank everyone.
I now have a better understanding.
Thanks for your time and help.

Worth
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