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Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

L1A424 was found on the plate immediately below the right rear tailight. I found "0002" on the rear-most plate on the right side of the Abrams.

Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Neil,
To me it looks like it's the first Lima Tank.

Joe D
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Okay, just checking. So is it L1 or H1 or both?

On a related note, dont Abrams have SNs, or RNs, like earlier vehicles?

Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Neil,
0002 should be the Serial Number, L1A424 the registartion. Like I said earlier though, I really am not too familiar with the XM-1's and all the pilot/test vehicles. I guess I missed something discussed during an earlier thread. From what I gather there is some question about if there was an L1 and H1 and which this is or possibly they are the same. All I can say is it's the 2nd one. Now is it the second M1 ever made or the second made in Lima I can't say. It's not like the M60 where they modified some 48's before making the pilots. I was under the impression that the Chrysler and GM models were not included and the numbers started with 0001 when the first tanks were made after the competition was settled. I always thought the Pilot Vehicle at Knox was 0001. But I never bothered to check it. As far as registration numbers goes, I have never figured out how they created them, let alone the sequence they follow. This also applies to the M60's. Wish I had a better answer.

Sorry Neil
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Okay, I guess I'm just confused based on what you said before... I thought the SNs started with L or D... Following that line of thought, I found L1A424 - that would be the SN, not the RN right? So I'm confused then where 0002 fits in & which one is the SN...

And just so we're 100% clear on which number was where...



Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Neil,
Sorry for all the confusion Confused , I 'm so used to looking at M1 serial numbers that I didn't realize the L1A424 would be mistaken for one . Yes, Until recently M1 serial numbers in all variations started with an "L" or "D" for Lima or Detroit. But that would be the only letter in the number. The rest would just be a number, the lower the older. Example, D076, L709, D3275, L11324, L15332. The AIM tanks made at Anniston now have an "A" in the number but it's not in the beginning. I can't remember exactly how they go right now Neutral . L1A424 reads as a registration number because it has more than one letter. Also from what I remember registration numbers were always 6 characters for M1's. The tank Jeff posted that started this thread is "JE01EW" . Pretty similar to late model Army M60's. 0002 sounds more like a serial number since it's in sorta a sequence. Maybe they didn't think to make it with an "L" or "D" that early in the game and relied on the registration to ID it. Wish I could see a picture of those numbers and their exact location. Since it's not a standard production M1 it is even possible everything I have explained does not apply to this tank. Now the other question, could it possibly be D002 ???? Shocked .

Joe D
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Joe

I found my Ft McCoy photos. I was amazed that it is such a low SN.




My Tank at Ft Polk ( 89-91) was SN 0223. It had been a 3rd ID Tank in Germany. Turned in with IPM1 issue, 'repaired', & then issued to 5th ID in early 1989 (before I arrived there).

0223 was one of the ORF tanks. It replaced my first tank (SN unknown) due to habitual mechanical breakdowns caused by 1) An undetermined electrical fault which caused habitual component failures 2) Habitual suspension failures caused by ( get this ) a warped hull !!!

I named her 'Condemed'. Her turret welded SN was 666 ( !!??) (Go figure..) Thankfully it was determined to 'float' her, and I signed for 0223 as a replacement.



NON-Depot repaired ('retag & reissue') tanks are a bitch.... (FAR WORSE than the NTC issued tanks, which were a nightmare in their own right...)


Don
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Don,
Man you tell the truth about those non-depot repair pigs. In '86 we had a tank burn up in our company, SGT Fry's (No Joke, that was his name), "Herbie" was replaced by what looked like a brand new M60A1 RISE Passive. There was much happiness until we took it to the field. It was a local float rebuild painted to look new. Only the major broken crap was fixed and a lot the stuff like the sponson boxes were filled with bondo or painted to look like new parts instead of being replaced.
Remember the M1's we had in 2nd Tank back in 90-91. Now that's how to rebuild a tank. The ones we had in "Cold Steel" were former 3AD tanks that got rebuilt at Anniston to M1 IP standards. I still to this day think those were the most accurate firing tanks I've been on.
Neil,
I found my M1A1 AIM serial number example too. It was 7A108U. I believe it was 7108 and the A means Anniston, the U which I failed to mention earlier means it has DU Armor now. I will have to get more info when I get home to confirm or deny this. BTW, the registration was JZ0699.

Joe D
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Dontos
It replaced my first tank (SN unknown) due to habitual mechanical breakdowns caused by 1) An undetermined electrical fault which caused habitual component failures 2) Habitual suspension failures caused by ( get this ) a warped hull !!!


I had a Chieftain like that for my first command - the squadron dozer tank though we never ever actually unpacked the dozer blade from its packing case and fitted it. It was probably just as well as the engine on this thing was always dying. It was so bad that we were officially designated squadron rearguard tank and always recovered in the middle of the night after the front line sorry FEBA had passed us by...

It took over a year and numerous component changes before we realised there was a loose wire in the engine kill switch beside the commanders position...

Cool

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Jim

The 'faulty' switch theme struck a familiar note. One of the 'episodes' which added to 'Condemed' getting a bad reputation (with the '666' SN on the turret) was its appearent ability to start up on its own ( usually at night, in the Motor pool, tarped up...)

On more than one occasion, I was summoned to the Motor Pool ( by the duty NCOIC or Officer) to investigate 'My' tank running. Arriving with the keys, in disbelief, it was true. I arrived to be greeted by a number of individuals, and a 'secured & tarped' tank, which was running!!!

Bizarre but very true....!!! Gave a new meaning to 'The Haunted Tank'.

( it turned out to be a faulty 'Master Power' switch along with a 'sticking' engine start up button....) Case closed to that 'X-files' case.

For the entire time the '666' tank was in the Battalion, it NEVER successfully rolled out of the Motor Pool farther than a couple 100 meters, and it always required a recovery vehicle to tow it back....

(shivering at those frustrating times...) Its NOT the fondest time of my Army career!!

Don
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Geoff_walden
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:41 am
Post subject: Re: Ft Campbell M1

- Joe_D
Bob, Neil, Jeff, everyone,
There is an M-1 in front of range control at Fort Campbell. What's so unusual about it was it had the same air cleaner boxes as the M60 on the sides and was set up for a diesel engine. I wish I had taken a picture of it. Anyone have any idea why this particular tank was made???
Joe D


Joe,

How long has this tank been there? Two of the XM1 PVs were built/converted to mount the AVDS-1790 engine, and had air cleaners that resembled the M60A1 top-loading air cleaners. I don't recall which ones these two were - one of them (the hull at least) used to be at TACOM HQs in Warren, MI. It was in the General Dynamics boneyard near their test track, but was moved over to the TACOM side of the RR tracks when the government sold the GD Warren tank plant. Does anyone know what became of these vehicles that were at TACOM? They were just inside the Mound Road gate - this was in the mid-late 1990s. One of the XM1 PV hulls had one of the original Chrysler prototype turrets mounted to it (a rare relic).

Re: the Knox/APG XM1 debate ... I haven't seen the APG vehicle in awhile, but it's not an XM1 PV. Although (as I recall) the Knox XM1 is not marked, it seems pretty certain that it is PV1. Does anyone have a listing of all the XM1 PVs? PV4 and another used to be at TACOM, and I think PV6 was at Mainz Army Depot (but where did it go when that depot closed down?). PV11 was the one that was pretty much destroyed during ballistics testing (but where did the hulk end up? - APG? Anniston? some junk dealer???). I would think the other PVs ended up at Anniston or APG, but I haven't heard.

I have never understood the "H" designation of the APG XM1. After the PVs, the first 110 LRIP tanks were, AFAIK, L1 thru L110. I know L8 was marked "L8," for sure. I was at Fort Hood fielding some of the LRIPs in 1982, and they were all L-something ... I don't recall ever seeing one marked 0002 or anything like that. (These LRIP tanks were still technically "XM1s" BTW - the tank had not been type-classified when these first 110 production tanks were made.)

I'm not at all sure about this, and I don't want to start any unfounded rumors, but I think *maybe* this H1 or 0002 tank or whatever at APG was an early post-PV test bed. That is ... maybe ... made of non-ballistic steel, for some sort of automotive testing. I don't particularly recall anything like that in the early 80s, but we were testing and fielding true production tanks, not some one-off experimental something. Just a thought ... I really don't know the story behind this tank.

Geoff Walden
XM1/M1 NET Team, 1982-84
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:07 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Geoff,
Thanks for the info. I have heard the APG Abrams alternatively referred to as H1 or L1... I need to look at the skirts again next time I am up there. I dont suppose someone could post a picture of the location of Abrams SNs - Joe D, like your M60 guide pics? I think the APG's claim is based on that the LRIP Abrams were sometimes referred to as XM1s...

Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Geoff,
When I last saw that tank it was January 2004. I caught my attention since Campbell is the home of the 101st. The only tank unit there is a squadron from the 278th ACR, Tennesee National Gaurd. Not even much of a range there. I still kick myself in the ass for not taking pictures of it. I hadn't invested in a digital camera at that time. It was obvious that it was a test vehicle with the brackets to run instrumentation cables still mounted. When I get home I will have business there and will correct that mistake along with capturing the M60A3's in the Gaurd Motor pool and the one in front of the Armory in Clarksville.
Neil, I will try to make an M1 serial number guide similar to the M60 one I posted a while back. I will have to send it to you direct in order for you to get it. It will be most likely of an M1A2 (all I have to work with) but I will add comments for earlier models.

Joe D
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Joe, sounds good. I'll send you the APG Abrams pics since you cant see them on here...

Neil
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Hello to all, since I started this three page thread with the M1 at the Ft Hood, 1st CAV Museum, I thought I would add another M1 that on display at the parade field in front of 1st CAV HQ's. I stopped by there today and snapped these pictures. I still have two other M1's on display around the post to get to and will within the next few weeks.
This M1 had 1406 on it's rear engine exhaust covers as well as all it's side skirts. You can see the turrets welded on number. Is there anything significant about this M1?







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