±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 225
Total: 225
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Member Screenshots
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Photo Gallery
05: Community Forums
06: Photo Gallery
07: Your Account
08: News Archive
09: News Archive
10: Downloads
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Photo Gallery
14: Photo Gallery
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Photo Gallery
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Community Forums
29: Your Account
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Downloads
35: Photo Gallery
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: News Archive
44: Photo Gallery
45: Home
46: Photo Gallery
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Downloads
50: Photo Gallery
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: News Archive
54: Community Forums
55: Member Screenshots
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Tell a Friend
59: Photo Gallery
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Home
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: Photo Gallery
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: News Archive
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Photo Gallery
78: Photo Gallery
79: Photo Gallery
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: Downloads
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Downloads
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Member Screenshots
89: Community Forums
90: Home
91: Photo Gallery
92: Home
93: Home
94: Photo Gallery
95: Downloads
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Photo Gallery
101: Photo Gallery
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Photo Gallery
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Member Screenshots
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Member Screenshots
119: Community Forums
120: Home
121: Home
122: Member Screenshots
123: Home
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Community Forums
128: Photo Gallery
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Home
138: Downloads
139: Community Forums
140: Photo Gallery
141: Community Forums
142: News Archive
143: Community Forums
144: Photo Gallery
145: Home
146: Photo Gallery
147: Community Forums
148: Home
149: News Archive
150: Photo Gallery
151: Photo Gallery
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Photo Gallery
157: Photo Gallery
158: Downloads
159: Community Forums
160: Member Screenshots
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Photo Gallery
166: Member Screenshots
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Photo Gallery
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: News
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Your Account
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Home
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Your Account
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Photo Gallery
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Home
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Photo Gallery
211: Photo Gallery
212: Photo Gallery
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Home
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Photo Gallery
222: Your Account
223: Photo Gallery
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Ah, I have discovered a relatively simple identification cue to tell the difference between an FSED XM1 and an LRIP or later Abrams...

If the lower, rear part of the turret has a vertical "slab" (my word) - like on this one (see also Hunnicutt's Abrams p 200) - its an FSED XM1.



LRIP & later Abrams dont have that vertical slab - see this pic & Hunnicutt's Abrams p206.



So the Abrams at the Fort Hood East Gate is an FSED XM1 - one of only 11 built. However, it appears that Operational Test III (OT-III) at Fort Hood (ie 2-5 Cav, etc) used LRIP, not FSED, tanks (see Hunnicutt's Abrams, p 202-203). Although FSED Abrams were tested at Fort Bliss during OT-II...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:08 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

So I'm to assume that this is a relatively rare M1? Any one know what became of the other eleven? And I'm still curious as to what the stampings on the side skirts stood for.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:10 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Yes, its pretty rare. Its a "true" XM1. XM1s include the original XM1 competitor vehicle (the turret exists, not sure what happened to the hull), and the 11 Full-Scale Engineering Development (FSED) pilot vehicles (PV).

PV1 is in front of the Patton Museum at Fort Knox
PV4 has the Chrysler competitor turret on it for some reason & at least was in storage at TACOM in Warren, MI
PV11 was used for live-fire testing & may or may not still exist "behind the fence" at APG...

There's another "XM1" at TACOM.

The Fort Campbell "XM1" could be FSED PVs...

The APG "XM1" is probably an LRIP vehicle - these were sometimes called XM1s as well...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:00 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Jeff

Research, Research, Research! Also a little luck that someone has documented it in print!!!

Thank goodness for Hunnicutt's indepth work. It really helps provide a sound basis for most armor related, historical information and data. (I'm sure most on this DG will atest to...)

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Yes, but... Hunnicutt's purpose was to explain the development & fielding of a particular tank or weapon system. This means that individual pilots or prototypes (pictures, RNs, SNs, etc) are occasionally mentioned... But in general, the fates or disposition of all pilots or prototypes are not given, and the location of stampings is certainly not. That being said, they're a great reference!

But in cases like these, we need to fill in the details. Unfortunately, I dont have a good way yet to determine the PV number or SN externally yet.

Don, any chance you could poke around the Patton Museum's XM1 next time you're there?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:05 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Neil_Baumgardner
Yes, but... Hunnicutt's purpose was to explain the development & fielding of a particular tank or weapon system. This means that individual pilots or prototypes (pictures, RNs, SNs, etc) are occasionally mentioned... But in general, the fates or disposition of all pilots or prototypes are not given, and the location of stampings is certainly not. That being said, they're a great reference!

But in cases like these, we need to fill in the details. Unfortunately, I dont have a good way yet to determine the PV number or SN externally yet.

Don, any chance you could poke around the Patton Museum's XM1 next time you're there?

Neil


Cool

Did it yesterday, but a 'tad' too cold (temps in 20's) to do any real 'hunting'. No stamp tags on skirts, no obvious markings. I'll do a little more indepth snooping next time.

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

I would ask the museum directors but they cant even keep track of where their Shermans are, (seriously, I had to tell them what motor pool they were in and they still cant find a field piece). Their anxious for me to assist them but they don't want to do much for me. I think Dontos is the "key" to our research at this time. I will try and get back to the XM-1 when I get some free time and look her over again.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Jeff,
Those stamps on that XM-1 should be ID marks for the Ballistic skirts. C/A should mean "Chobham Armor". Remember that when the M-1 was first made it was not designed with the new armor by either Chrysler or GM. It was later demonstrated to the US and was adopted for the program. From what I remember the pilot vehicles were the first to be equipped with this material. That's why the turret's appearance changed so much from the prototype. Can't bend it or shape it, had to made in slab form. The Chrysler skirts were marginal protection and served also to reduce dirt ingestion of the turbine engine

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Geoff_walden
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Some of the PVs had numbers stamped into the hull in various places. I recall that one of the tanks that was at TACOM had PV4 stamped into the hull. The Fort Knox example has no numbers at all, AFAIR, which leads to the question "how do we know it's PV1?" Unless museum records prove that, I don't really know.

Jeff, I'd be real interested to hear if you can find anything on that Hood tank that shows which PV it is - it is definitely a rare tank! I'd guess only about 5 or 6 of the original 11 still exist, and most of those were modified from their original configuration, due to testing improvements. An example of this is the "paddle wheel" track retainer on the sprocket. This was installed on all (I think) 11 PVs as a result of the initial OT-II test at Fort Bliss, when the tanks threw track a lot. The second part of OT-II was at Fort Knox, using the paddle wheels (and other improvements).

Other than that, this Hood PV looks pretty original, on the outside. It still has the ammo feed chute for the TC's 50-cal, the old-style MRS held on by a bunch of bolts, the original front skirts with circular recesses for the latches, etc.

As Neil mentioned, the tanks used for OT-III at Hood and later in initial fielding were the first 110 LRIP tanks, not the PVs. These were also technically XM-1s, since the tank had not yet been type-classified. I was involved in this fielding, and I do not recall ever seeing a PV at Hood at that time (I think I would have noticed, being kinda "into" the tank history at that time).

I will try to find my notes and photos from the early 80s. Honestly, I can't remember now if the LRIP tank S/Ns started with a letter, or just the number. They were all made at Lima, so maybe it was just a number without the L. But I do remember refering to L8 at that time - L8 was not fielded, but was used for various tests (it had an under-armor APU added to the left-rear sponson). I wonder whatever happened to L8 ... it had so many mods, I doubt if it was ever fielded to a unit ... not in that configuration, anyway (if anyone finds an early M1 with an odd box with louvers sticking at the back at the upper left rear, it's L8).

My notes from way back when also told where all the PVs were, at that time. Will try to dig that stuff out.

Geoff Walden
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Geoff_walden
- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Some of the PVs had numbers stamped into the hull in various places. I recall that one of the tanks that was at TACOM had PV4 stamped into the hull. The Fort Knox example has no numbers at all, AFAIR, which leads to the question "how do we know it's PV1?" Unless museum records prove that, I don't really know.


Geoff, do you remember where PV4 was stamped?

As for the Knox example, we at least know its a PV since it has the vertical "slab" on the rear turret - maybe Don can chime in as to what the museum records say... And I thought I had found "something" on it that proved it was PV1...





Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Geoff_walden

My notes from way back when also told where all the PVs were, at that time. Will try to dig that stuff out.


Geoff, if you could find that list it could be a goldmine! Next though, since the Chrysler turret got put on PV4.... What happened to the original chassis?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:08 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.


Jeff

There is usually a data plate on the interior turret wall at the TC's position. If you can get a shot of it (if one is there) you might be able to get some information.

I'll dig around and see if I can find an image of its location, and post it a little later.

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:43 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.


Here is a reference image for the turret data plate.



Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 5 of 6
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum