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4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:28 pm
Post subject: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

I visited the 4ID museum storage facilty today and recorded and photographed all the items that were outside there. Here is the begining of a few posts;
This M60 is serial 8823, Reg number JJ01V4. I noticed that with the turret spun around, that there is a slight indentation of the turret bottom, just over the drivers opening. I never noticed this on other M60's. Which varient do we have here?
The%20second%20M60%20is%20serial%20number%20836.%20I%20counld%20only%20find%20thi%20on%20the%20rear%20due%20to%20the%20thich%20paint,%20and%20I%20did%20not%20see%20a%20Reg%20number.%20The%20bumper%20numbers%20are%204-IR-10%20and%20C-15.%20Any%20idea%20what%20that%20unit%20is?%20Also%20notice%20the%20Spec5%20rank%20on%20the%20gunner%20painted%20on%20the%20glacis.%20 The%20last%20vehicle%20for%20this%20post%20is%20an%20M728%20CEV.%20The%20serial%20number%20was%20a%20very%20low%2059.%20I%20got%20up%20to%20the%20cannon%20itself%20and%20got%20the%20following%20stamping%20from%20the%20edge%20of%20the%20muzzle;%20\"Tube%20No%20331,%20Cannon%20165mm%20Gun,%20MFR%2019206,%201981,%20LBS%20720,%20INSP%20G.R.L.\".%20There%20is%20also%20the%20Chrysler%20plate%20attached%20to%20the%20rear,%20which%20I%20only%20see%20on%20CEV's%20andnever%20regular%20M60's.%20My%20research%20on%20these%20while%20at%20Ft%20Irwin%20showed%20that%20only%20291%20were%20built.%20Since%20all%20seem%20to%20be%20M60A1's%20converted,%20would%20this%20be%20the%2059th%20M60%20built?%20

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

Jeff,
M60A1
The "indentation" is just what you think it might be...clearance for the driver's head when operating the vehicle with the turret in travel lock and the driver's head out of the hatch. Also, it's possible for him to egress the vehicle this way (if he's in "weight limits"), though it's awkward and not usually done. You'd have to crawl/slide over the vision blocks and out...and be highly motivated to do so.

The driver's seat is multi-position for height...basically lowered for buttoned up and viewing out the vision blocks as in combat, and raised for "out the hatch", for which you have the "relief" in the turret rear. There is also a "seat dump" release so you can access the escape hatch in the hull floor. M1 Abrams don't have these.

D.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:50 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

Jeff,
I'll let Joe chime in more authoritatively, but I've noticed a couple of other low SN M728s: 90 in Corinth, GA; 108 at the 4th ID HQ; 229 at Fort McCoy. Even 823 at Fort Irwin is relatively low compared to the four digit M60 SNs. This leads me to wonder 2 possibilities: All M728s were built from older M60s, or they were renumbered in their own SN series - not in the M60 series... But SN 823 (since 291 were built) might indicate they are just older M60 chassis...

Neil
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:56 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

SP5 would be typical for the era for a tanker...who is a "specialist". An E7 is a lotta' stripes for a TC, however, so this was probably a platoon SGT for a tank company at least. In my day, a SSGT would the most rank for a "mere" TC and even he might well be a Platoon SGT., though I was never in a tank company, so I can't say very well what might be typical. From Vietnam forward I was always TC unless I chose to shoot, and I was a Spec 4!

Joe or Roy can probably speak better to this.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:06 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

If they were renumbered you would expect to see struck out numbers on the chassis similar to some of the rebuilds.

Were the M728s all rebuilt from M60s or were any new builds?

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:08 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

I believe CEV's use the old M60 serial number. I agree they are usually three digits. I was told, (I cant remember by who) that all CEV's started out as M60A1's. I'm curious if this is true for AVLB's as well?!?!

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:19 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

I wouldn't think that a two digit M60 was an A1. Maybe someone is basing it on the turret shape but I would think the CEV turret, with the derrick and different gun would be a new turret anyway so would it matter whether it was an A0 or A1? And if they were replaceing the turret it would make sense to use chassis with the older, less desirable turret shape.

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:24 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I believe CEV's use the old M60 serial number. I agree they are usually three digits. I was told, (I cant remember by who) that all CEV's started out as M60A1's. I'm curious if this is true for AVLB's as well?!?!


We know that some AVLB's began life as M60A2's, and Bob, I think, has some nice pics of the weldy up bits on those.
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:34 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

In a tank Platoon (5 tanks "Back in the day...")

The SFC / E-7 was the Plt Sgt (as today, usually).

SSG / E-6 were TC's also (generally 2 in the Plt)

Spec5's(E-5) were gunners, on either an E7, an E6's tank. However they were not in the position of an NCO.

The Specialist Rank ( regardless of E-grade) was considered a non-responsibility duty position.

In 1985 when I joined my first unit, ALL E-5's in the company were Spec 5's. About that time the Army did away with all Specialist ranks (except 'Specialist 4'), and the Spec 5's became Sgts. No pay increase, just 'command' responsibility.

This is best compared to the current day 'Specialist 4' rank and Corporal. Both are of the same paygrade, but one has 'command' authority and responsibilies as an NCO.

This is a 'hack' definition. So if anyone can explain it any better,.....be my guest.

Don
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:36 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

Me? Ahhh I don't know of any AVLB pics that I have

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:49 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

- Dontos
In a tank Platoon (5 tanks "Back in the day...")

The SFC / E-7 was the Plt Sgt (as today, usually).

SSG / E-6 were TC's also (generally 2 in the Plt)

Spec5's(E-5) were gunners, on either an E7, an E6's tank. However they were not in the position of an NCO.

The Specialist Rank ( regardless of E-grade) was considered a non-responsibility duty position.

In 1985 when I joined my first unit, ALL E-5's in the company were Spec 5's. About that time the Army did away with all Specialist ranks (except 'Specialist 4'), and the Spec 5's became Sgts. No pay increase, just 'command' responsibility.

This is best compared to the current day 'Specialist 4' rank and Corporal. Both are of the same paygrade, but one has 'command' authority and responsibilies as an NCO.

This is a 'hack' definition. So if anyone can explain it any better,.....be my guest.

Don


So, I was purty close...

I was blessed, I guess, by being in units that didn't slot you by rank so much as by experience and what you could do...you just didn't get paid for it.

Now, I don't know very much, but I get paid better for it. I like this deal better. Wink
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:23 pm
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

As I remember being told

The specialist rank was created because back in the days of 'The Big Army' (i.e. during the Draft) there was a legal limit on how many NCOs each service could have. This mainly hurt the Army who needed a fair number of NCOs to lead units. So that they could promote people based on technical competence (and I think later longevity) the Specialist rank was created.

Now the Air Force only flirted with an NCO/non NCO rank for a short while. In their case it was only in the rank of E-4 which was converted from being all sergeants to being 'Senior Airman' (SRA) for your first year as an E-4. Supposedly this gave them time to send you to the first tier of NCO school (a two week course if I remember right) before you became an NCO. It also created a little problem. You began testing for E-5 (Staff Sergeant) once you were an E-4. If you could test real well, and had the promotion cycle fall just right it was possible to have a date of rank for E-5 on the same day you would sew on your E-4 Sergeant stripe ( This was the era when they came up with the idea that Airman stripes would have a blue star in them and NCO stripes would have a Silver Star. Since the blue star blended in with the blue background it looked like you had the stripes on a circle with no star). I wasn't quite that lucky I ended up as a buck Sergeant for a month. That meant I had to replace the SRA stripes with sergeant Stripes then replace them almost immediatly with Staff Stripes. Some guys tried coloring the blue star with a silver magic marker but if our Squadron Commander caught you doing that both you and your supervisor would be in his office listening to a lecture about the traditions and responsibility of an NCO. If the DCM (Deputy Commander for Maintenance, who was in charge of the entire flightline and made it known that he went to OTS and became a Lt Col because he couldn't make tech Sergeant (E-6)) you were in really deep trouble. He would take away your NCO status (no big deal for some, t didn't get you any more money) and your supervisor may be looking at a serious note in his Performance Report (screwing promotion chances for a few years possibly)

Rank in the Air Force was tough to get, It was always the slowest of all the services. Whne I made E-5 in under 4 years there were some peple who wouldn't talk to me for months because I 'had gotten their stripe' ( I didn't see it that way, they were carrying a lot more points for Time in Service and Time in Grade that I had to counter by getting better test scores)

When I got out at 9 years it was partially because I was pissed that they changed the rules after I had gotten my line number for E-6 (meaning I would get my stripe in about 9 months since I was so far down the seniority list of E-5s that were being promoted) and took away my line number ( the other reasons were because they were going to send me back to teh flightline after I had crosstrained to computers and the money on the outside for Unix programmers was just too good)

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:33 am
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

About the CEV's,

Jeff said:

I believe CEV's use the old M60 serial number. I agree they are usually three digits. I was told, (I cant remember by who) that all CEV's started out as M60A1's. I'm curious if this is true for AVLB's as well?!?!


CEV's were made new and had their own numbers assigned like new AVLB's. They were made from M60A1 hulls over a drawn out period, That's why you see them with the early A1 Hull's with 3 light lifting eyes on the side hull and small escape hatches all the way to the last generation hull with only 2 heavy eyes on the side. The plate you see on the back "Chrysler Corporation Defense Operations..." are also found on early model M60A1's and AVLB's. The M60A1 in front of Skidgel Hall at Fort Knox has such a plate. The turrets were cast but not machined to accept the rangefinder. They were then made into CEV's which required a lot of machining, welding and plumbing to do this. To use an M60A0 would take a lot more work just to upgrade the hull. When the M60A2's were being phased out (all turned over by end of '81) there were numerous suggestions on what to do with the hulls. Originally the recomendations were to put M48A2 turrets on them with 105 guns, then to make them M60A3's with new turrets, then last to make CEV's and AVLB's from them. Only AVLB's were made because there would be no new turrets fabricated by the time conversion would start and all the older A1 turrets were still needed when converting A1's to A3's. Another event also was the Division 86 plan which required a much larger fleet of AVLB's which the old A2 hulls could be converted to much easier. The 48 turrets weren't used since they were considered sub standard by that time from what I understand. M60A2 AVLB's retained the original serial number. I am not sure if the Marine M60 AVLBs they got not to long ago were new, rebuild AVLB's, or M60A1/A2's converted or even what their serial numbers are.

That's what I know so far,
Joe D
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:03 am
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

Okay, but how do you get an SN 823 for a CEV then?

Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:27 am
Post subject: Re: 4ID museum storage M60's and CEV....

Neil,
To be honest, I have no Idea. I doesn't make sense to me but there is always the exception to the rule. If it was a rebuild and retained the original number 891 would make it an M60A0, which when CEV production started had ceased being made. If it was a rebuild (News to me) why make it from an A0 when an A1/A2 hull would be much easier. I haven't seen a picture of it so I can't really say one way or the other, Jeff, was it possible the number came from the Deck instead of the Hull????

Joe D
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