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Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:21 am
Post subject: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

I stop by the Ft. Bliss M60A0 Friday on my way home from work.

Per Joe D's info on where to look for SN's and RN's, I think I found them.

Standing in front of the vehicle looking at it. The right tow lug has the number 59 on it. Looks like someone else had been looking for it also because the paint had been scrap away.

Checking the area below the right front headlight assemble, I was able to scrap a little paint away and found the RN to be 9B3093.

Unable to confirm the SN on the left rear hull/engine deck area. Way to much paint.

I tried to take pictures of the numbers, but I guess my little camera don't focus very well on things like that.

Serial Number: 59
Registration: 9B3093

Location correction for the AFV Register: vehicle is out in front of the Ft Bliss Museum building. You have it listed as "else where on post".
Sometime%20ago%20I%20had%20posted%20a%20photo%20of%20the%20red%20sign%20the%20museum%20had%20behind%20the%20tank%20calling%20it%20a%20M60A3.%20The%20sun%20destoryed%20it%20within%20a%20few%20years. The%20museum%20has%20replace%20that%20sign%20with%20one%20that%20has%20a%20white%20back%20ground%20and%20has%20corrected%20the%20mistake%20made%20on%20the%20red%20one.

The staff here maybe primarly air defense, but it look like they do listen when folks tell them something is wrong.

Update on the 1st Armored Division and it's upcoming move to Ft. Bliss.
Around fall of last year, the lead elements for the FCS Evaluation BCT opened an office here at Ft. Bliss.
February 8, 2007 issue of the Monitor (base newspaper) listed the DWI report for 2006/2007 by Brigades and their units.
1st Bn 36 Infantry, 1st Bde, 1st Armored Division was listed as one of the brigades on the metrix. Per 1st AD web site, 1/36 Inf, 1st Bde is stationed at Giessen Germany.
March 2, 2007, About 30 some troops where spotted, at the base Burger King getting breakfast, wearing 1st AD shoulder patchs.
There have been no big news reports other that the 1st AD is coming and the base and the city is working hard to build enough infrastructure to support all of units and their families.
Looks like the 1/36 is going to be the FCS Evaluation unit.

Spot Reports from Ft. Bliss.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

Guilty for that one Mr. Green ,
Hi Roy,
When I was at Bliss last June for 4 days before I shipped here I spotted the old girl and got the serial number. I just didn't have a camera with me. I was kinda on a tight schedule. I didn't have time to get the Registartion number either, but that should be it. Thanks for posting the picture.


Joe D
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

I stop by the Ft. Bliss M60A0 Friday on my way home from work.

Per Joe D's info on where to look for SN's and RN's, I think I found them.

Standing in front of the vehicle looking at it. The right tow lug has the number 59 on it. Looks like someone else had been looking for it also because the paint had been scrap away.

Checking the area below the right front headlight assemble, I was able to scrap a little paint away and found the RN to be 9B3093.

Unable to confirm the SN on the left rear hull/engine deck area. Way to much paint.

I tried to take pictures of the numbers, but I guess my little camera don't focus very well on things like that.

Serial Number: 59
Registration: 9B3093

. . .

Spot Reports from Ft. Bliss.
Sgt, Scouts Out!


Wait a minute

I thought we had RN 9B3093 on s/n 10 The 'smooth bore' M60 at Ft Hood, which fell in line with RN 9B3096 s/n 13 at Thurmont. If the sequence runs true s/n 59 would be 9B3142.

Just an observation

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

Duplicate RNs is not that unusual when at least one example is painted on. The Hood M60A0 has 9B3093 painted on, but I didnt see where Jeff reported he found it stamped anywhere...

Roy, did you find that RN stamped somewhere on the Bliss example, or painted on?

Bob, same question for yours... Obviously, you always trust stamps over paint...

You certainly wouldnt want to trust the RNs painted on most of the newly repainted vehicles at APG - although the original paint job RNs seem to have been accurate...

Neil
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

I've got stamps and paint in Thurmont (The paint is very faded)


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Roy_A_Lingle
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Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:20 am
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

Roy did you find that RN stamped somewhere on the Bliss example, or painted on?


Stamped into the hull, below front head light assemble to the driver's left front point of view.

The vehicle was painted by a group of volunteers who had no idea how a tank like that should have been painted. The staff at that time also didn't really care sense he didn't want the vehicle to start with.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:30 am
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

Interesting - The location is the same as on Thurmont and several of the M60s I looked at in New Jersey.

So I guess we need The Ft Hood contingent to check-in with their information.

Now a general question

How are Registration numbers assigned? Is their a Regulation specifying who assigns them? How are they used?

In the Air Force every Aircraft had a tail number that was assigned (I believe) when the funds were allocated (Which is why we were receiving '75' aircraft in 1977 at Langley) That tail number is the basis for recording all work on the aircraft as well as being the primary identifier both visually and in conversation. You can go out on websites and see a basic history of aircraft by tail number back to at least WWII. Although the website is maintained by an enthusiast the basic records come from the government since the tail number is the primary means of cataloging that aircrafts documents.

I also know that in the Air Force ground vehicles had a number stenciled on the door, I guess this was the registration number. The Air Force numbers always began with the year followed by a letter then a number. I know that we used that number for all the maintenance records so I assumed that they were filed away like aircraft forms.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:33 am
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

I am reasonably certain registration numbers were assigned by the Ordnance Corps, at least before '61. Afterwards, probably assigned by the Army Materiel Command. They usually have some sort of format that means you can find a "key" number to subtract and match up the SN - but sometimes there are gaps & therefore multiple possible keys...

Neil
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:23 am
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

RNs, the eternal can of worms...

All I remember at this point was that the system changed a few times, IIRC the first digits in the old USA #s gave an indication of the type of vehicle (I've more on this somewhere but I just moved), then there was a period when the first digits before the letter (eg 9A4759, 13C501) indicated either the type or the weight class, 9 being tanks, 11 on M551s, M113s, M114 + A1s, M41s and M42s usually had 12 (12HN04 should be familiar to someone, 12F46069 as well), M114E1/A2s had 13- I think it was a weight-based classification, but I'm not sure, it's been to long since I last heard it explained and I know I was given a number of different explanations.

Anyways, sometime in the mid/late 80s, the N-registration was introduced and AFAIK there was no particular rhyme or reason to it. Interesting tidbit: When I was working for AOAP way back when, all those numbers were always referred to as USA #s by us technicians as well as US Army personnel, a registration number was something that existed only in the civilian world.

Not much help, I know...

Jens O.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:32 am
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

Keep in mind they go as far back as the cavalry combat cars, Shermans & Stuarts, etc. Back then they were entirely numbers, no letters. At some point, I wonder if it was around '61, letters got introduced... I'm reasonably certain they were referred to as registration numbers way back in WWII and before, albeit colloquially as "USA" numbers.

Neil
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:28 am
Post subject: Re: Neil, correction and update for the AFV Register

- Neil_Baumgardner
Keep in mind they go as far back as the cavalry combat cars, Shermans & Stuarts, etc. Back then they were entirely numbers, no letters. At some point, I wonder if it was around '61, letters got introduced... I'm reasonably certain they were referred to as registration numbers way back in WWII and before, albeit colloquially as "USA" numbers.

Neil


Yes,

the old USA #s from way back when were what I was referring to, they were keyed to the equipment type- I really have to unpack the book boxes. As for colloquially, you know there's always a difference to what's written on paper and the soldier's vocabulary... Laughing

Cheers,

Jens O.
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