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Tigers in the Seine
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Larso
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:03 pm
Post subject: Tigers in the Seine

Hi all, I'm new to this Forum, though I have vague memories of it's previous incarnation. Anyway I've read through the 34 pages or so of posts and really enjoyed the threads that related to my personal interests.

My question today follows a mention made in Wilbeck's book 'Sledgehammers' when during the retreat from Normandy, two Tigers sunk in the Seine while crossing by ferry. I've done a bit of research on this but I haven't been able to learn much more. Does anyone here know anymore about this incident? Would these vehicles be recoverable? Someone on another forum noted that the area was heavily dredged during the 50s so that might've had an impact. Anyway, any info you have to share would be interesting.

John

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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Tigers in the Seine

Two words: welcome and no.

Welcome to the group. We seem to have two camps - US serving and recent retirees, and everyone else. Any newcomers who can tip the balance of the conversation back to the proper spellings of 'armour', 'colour' and 'flavour' are my friends.

As for Tigers in the Seine, that is a new one for me. I have no basis for this remark (as often happens on this invention they call the inter-web), but I think the French were very methodical about salvaging and clearing all war debris as soon as practical. If a submerged obstacle could cause a canal wreck, it would get top priority vs 4 burnout Shermans on a hill side not doing anything.
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Larso
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:18 am
Post subject: Re: Tigers in the Seine

Hi and thanks,

I've gone back to the book for it's reference. It's on page 131. If I'm understanding that 'ibid' thing correctly, Wilbeck's source was Schneider's 'Tigers in Combat II' page 365. Perhaps if someone has that book we could learn more.

The poster who wrote about the dredging also said the Seine is wide and deep at that point. If that ferry sank in the deep part well...... I guess I'm surprised that something hasn't come up about this before. Tigers have been hot property since the 70s. Surely some of the soldiers involved that day passed on info even if only in passing, to someone at the Panzer Museum or to one of the prospective collectors. Hmm... curious I am......

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George_Bradford
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Tigers in the Seine

Hi Larso;

Actually, the best reference is on page 333 of Tigers in Combat II.
In reference to sSS-PzAbt.102(502) at the Seine. Reads...


28.08.44 "While crossing the Seine on a ferry, tank 001 falls into Rouen Harbour and cannot be recovered."

George Bradford
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Larso
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Tigers in the Seine

Thanks George,

I was wondering about the original source too - was it the battalion war diary or from a personal memoir/interview?

From what you've found already, it seems that there were two seperate incidents/accidents. The one involving Tiger 001 is intriguing, in that there is an extent to where it might be - within the boundaries of the harbour. I gather it's a big harbour though......

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