±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 593
Total: 593
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Your Account
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: CPGlang
06: Community Forums
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Statistics
21: Photo Gallery
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Your Account
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: News
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: CPGlang
49: Home
50: Photo Gallery
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: CPGlang
66: Community Forums
67: Downloads
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Photo Gallery
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Photo Gallery
85: Photo Gallery
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Your Account
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Photo Gallery
115: Photo Gallery
116: Photo Gallery
117: Home
118: Search
119: Community Forums
120: Photo Gallery
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Photo Gallery
126: Photo Gallery
127: Downloads
128: Statistics
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Downloads
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: CPGlang
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Photo Gallery
156: Downloads
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Photo Gallery
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Downloads
182: Home
183: Photo Gallery
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Member Screenshots
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Photo Gallery
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Home
205: Home
206: Your Account
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Home
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Your Account
226: News Archive
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Downloads
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Statistics
251: Photo Gallery
252: Community Forums
253: Photo Gallery
254: Downloads
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: News
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Downloads
271: Community Forums
272: News
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Downloads
277: Community Forums
278: Photo Gallery
279: Home
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Downloads
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Photo Gallery
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Downloads
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Home
296: Community Forums
297: Photo Gallery
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Home
301: Photo Gallery
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Community Forums
307: Home
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Photo Gallery
314: Home
315: Community Forums
316: CPGlang
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Photo Gallery
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: News
324: Photo Gallery
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Home
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Photo Gallery
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Your Account
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Downloads
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Your Account
366: Photo Gallery
367: Home
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Photo Gallery
371: Home
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Photo Gallery
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Photo Gallery
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Statistics
388: Community Forums
389: Photo Gallery
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: Community Forums
397: News
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Photo Gallery
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Home
407: Your Account
408: Home
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Home
416: Member Screenshots
417: Photo Gallery
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Your Account
425: Your Account
426: Your Account
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: News
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Photo Gallery
441: Member Screenshots
442: Photo Gallery
443: Community Forums
444: Photo Gallery
445: Community Forums
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Home
451: News
452: Photo Gallery
453: Photo Gallery
454: Community Forums
455: Statistics
456: Home
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Home
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Statistics
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: CPGlang
483: Home
484: Downloads
485: Community Forums
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Photo Gallery
490: Community Forums
491: Treasury
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Home
498: Community Forums
499: Home
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Your Account
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Home
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Downloads
512: Community Forums
513: Downloads
514: Photo Gallery
515: Community Forums
516: Home
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Downloads
520: Your Account
521: Community Forums
522: Downloads
523: Photo Gallery
524: Photo Gallery
525: Community Forums
526: Downloads
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Home
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Statistics
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Downloads
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Your Account
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Photo Gallery
548: Community Forums
549: Member Screenshots
550: Community Forums
551: Photo Gallery
552: Statistics
553: Community Forums
554: Downloads
555: Community Forums
556: Downloads
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Photo Gallery
561: Community Forums
562: Home
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Statistics
569: CPGlang
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Home
575: Home
576: Community Forums
577: Statistics
578: Your Account
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Photo Gallery
584: Photo Gallery
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Member Screenshots
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
T26E4
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:21 pm
Post subject: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Howdy everyone. I posted this thread over on Missing-Lynx to try to explain how the damage was sustained on these two Soviet Lend Lease M4A2s. Any thoughts?

www.network54.com/Foru...mor-+M4A2s
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

I'm stumped! Can't even guess! Neutral


_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

WE have discussed this before. Its shipping damage probably caused by the cargo shifting during a storm - more common than you would think apparently. The dings are the same distance apart as something in the side of a liberty ship hold.

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I'd hate to see the hold of the Liberty ship after 35-odd tons of Sherman cannonballed around a few times.

In the late 1980's I worked in a Canadian Forces office that had technical manuals for all sorts of things. One was how to load ships. I was surprised to see diagrams of conventional through-deck loading techniques of what sure looked like a Liberty Ship. The CF had not had much experience loading ships in serving memory; things sure changed with the Balkans rotations.

Later I met a man I knew as a British exchange officer who resigned and came straight into the CF at the same rank and approximate seniority. He explained that specialists who had a skill not held by a Canadian could do what he'd done. His was loading ships.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 12:35 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

Its shipping damage probably caused by the cargo shifting during a storm - more common than you would think apparently. The dings are the same distance apart as something in the side of a liberty ship hold.
Cool


I have trouble seeing a collision takening place with enough force to damage armored plate like, but yet the tank didn't punch through the side of a liberty ship. Liberty ships had a problem with hulls that were too weak to withstand heavy storms. A number of them broke in half and sank because of that weakness.

I have no idea what cause that, but I for one, have trouble buying it was caused by hitting the side of a cargo ship during a storm.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 1:36 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I have to agree with Roy on this one. Most Liberty ships were built to withstand pressure / contact from the outside, not the inside. I can believe the ship would sustain damage but to dent a tank, seems very unlikely and unbelievable. I would love to see this tank in person. Looking at the road wheels, it looks "pieced" together at best.
This VVSS Sherman seems to have the 75mm gun, no pistol port, and early small "weep" (drain) holes at the rear of the turret splash guard. Having looked at the pictures on the site you list, I can tell it's a Chrysler build by the front "half round fill weld piece" over the diff's.
My guess is much of this tank is "cobbeled: together with various parts and steel plating. There are no vents over the engine compartment, and there is a hollow opening in the rear of each upper rear deck area, one of which appears ripped open, (see additional photo's). I'd like to know the serial number, (I'm sure Kurt Laughlin and Joe DeMarco would like to know as well.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:27 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

- Roy_A_Lingle

I have trouble seeing a collision takening place with enough force to damage armored plate like, but yet the tank didn't punch through the side of a liberty ship. Liberty ships had a problem with hulls that were too weak to withstand heavy storms. A number of them broke in half and sank because of that weakness.


It was the welded versions using the North Atlantic run to Murmansk that had the problem according to my tame ship guy Gibbo... if a crack started on a welded version there was nothing to stop it. The riveted versions were okay in the cold that far north (cracks stopped at the edge of a plate) so they were mainly used on that run... The technical expression for 'things inside the hull' I was looking for was 'frames' apparently...

There is an image floating around of a Sherman being unloaded in Murmansk with similar dents... I'll get Gibbo to see if he can find it as he told me about it.

I'm almost sure we had another image of similar damage caused to a Sherman on the old board... It was parked under a tree IIRC?

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:01 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Lent it to the Mrs.?

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:48 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I remember the thread on the old board also. If I remember correctly we had pictures of more than one with similar damage. I can think of some other scenarios during shipment that could cause such damage.

An improperly secured tank hitting other heavy cargo (Such as large steel plates being shipped) or the other cargo shifting and hitting a properly secured tank (anything very heavy with sharp edges) A railroad derailment which sent the tank down an embankment into large boulders seems a possibility.

Of course the damage could have occured later in the tanks life such as being pushed out of the way after being damaged and having other equipment pushed into it but I vaguely remember pictures of tanks being unloaded with similar damage at a port

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:03 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

- Sabot
Lent it to the Mrs.?


LOL

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:12 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

just thinking out loud here but the dents do seem very regular, I'm wondering if it might have been off loaded with some sort of a claw device rather then cables? sort of like a crane vending machine but waay bigger.

Jeff Lewis
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Claymore
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 27, 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:44 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Guys, I think Ive figured it out. This sherman looks like it's been restored from a wreck. Could it be that the side armour was missing/damaged and has been replaced with mild steel or aluminium cut to shape and welded in place. It would be very easy to damage or dent. The texture of the surface does not look like any rolled armour plate i've ever seen, but it does look like a sheet of aluminium.
Back to top
View user's profile
T26E4
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Claymore: If you note, I've cited TWO separate tanks with the same indentations. Over on ML, the "replaced side walls" theory has been bandied about as well. However, I tend to doubt it because if you look carefully at the dented walls' weld seams, they look intact and there's no indication of a replacement milder steel sidewall.

Also I've seen very smooth hull walls. Look at this post:

www.network54.com/Foru...179785806/

See the M4A3? Smooth too.
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Where's Hanno? He's got to have a theory!

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Here is the one under the tree...


_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum