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11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

- bsmart
Looking at the picture where the guy with the 45 is leaving the track I was reminded of 'Green Army Men (GAM)' It almost looks like someone positioned the GAM they pulled out of the package around the vehicles. The only one we're missing is the one crawling on the ground Laughing


Speaking of .45's, I notice that the holstered ones seem to have white pistol grips, what's up with that?

Other signs that this fight won't last long is that nobody has any web or load-bearing gear on, hence only one magazine is at their disposal, the ejection port door on all M-16's are closed (so they aren't locked and loaded or they're uncommonly assiduous as a group about closing that door after doing so), and the M551 likewise is not prepared to fire a Shillelagh because it's tranmitter door is also closed (probably a good idea anyway). I am surprised to see the dome CVC with the camo and subdued markings. Also, the only guy with a patch on his right shoulder that I can make out on this crappy monitor over here is the one who has apparently been to Korea.

So what is the consensus as to what year this really is?
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:29 am
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

And what magazine is at their disposal? If you look close there isn't a single M-16 with a magazine in the weapon! I guess they don't have to worry about mis-feeds that way Rolling Eyes

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:39 am
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

- bsmart
And what magazine is at their disposal? If you look close there isn't a single M-16 with a magazine in the weapon! I guess they don't have to worry about mis-feeds that way Rolling Eyes


Well, there you go...I'm on el crappo computers and monitors with glaring light on the screen in such charming places as hotels in Dresden and the ever scenic Frankfort am Main Flughafen Sheraton so it' amazing I can even find the "y" and "Z" on the keyboard, not to mention seeing such subtle details as you mention! Laughing Oh, to be home with decent light and a real monitor! (and a NEW computer, that Gateway promises is on the way)

I DO see white pistol grips, right? ....or is that an illusion?
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:27 am
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

I agree with the White pistol grips and the @nd ID patch on the Sheridan commanders right shoulder.

You live such a tough life Mr. Green Any side jaunts to museums on this trip?

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:10 am
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

- bsmart
I agree with the White pistol grips and the @nd ID patch on the Sheridan commanders right shoulder.

You live such a tough life Mr. Green Any side jaunts to museums on this trip?


You (and I) wish...how about: The 8th annual Dresden Symposium on Autoantibodies: " From Etiopathogenesis to the Prediction of Autoimmune Diseases: Relevance of Autoantibodies" (welcome to my "real life" Rolling Eyes )

I might mention in passing that it does pay the bills and lets me occasionally visit some mighty interesting military sites around the world so it ain't all pain. (some good people, too) Wink
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

The TC with the 2nd ID patch is the only one wearing a combat patch.

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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:40 am
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

I wonder if those .45's are wrapped in a plastic bag?

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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:26 pm
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

- Doug_Kibbey




So what is the consensus as to what year this really is?


If I had to put money on it, I'd say `72-`73 timeframe.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

- tanker2010
- Doug_Kibbey




So what is the consensus as to what year this really is?


If I had to put money on it, I'd say `72-`73 timeframe.


The only aspect of that I wonder about is the camo paint and subdued markings on the vehicles....I was still in during those years and OD with white markings was still the rule, though we were just testing some camo schemes at the Armor Board in '73 that were not yet adopted (and the camo pictured was not one of them).
You'd think at least one VN vet would have made to the unit, since they'd have just left there in about April '72.
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:58 am
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

I got to Germany in July of '73 and this is how our vehicles were painted. I think by '75 all the 11th Cav vehicles had that 'new' paint style. The anti-radar stuff. I agree this couldn't have been '79. In fact, I think by '79 the wooden tower may have been gone.

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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

7th Army created it's own scheme around 1971. They were in that scheme when I got there in `76. We repainted our vehicles in the Winter Verdant MERDC scheme in the summer of `77.
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

Weeelll,

I was going to wait for Jeff Button to chime in, but since he seems to be absent at the moment... Gentlemen, time to brush up on your ID skills, that is not an M113 we're looking at, but a mortar track those valiant GAM are emerging from- bonus points to whoever can tell us which one. Cool

On a related note, would anybody have the TO&E available for 11 Cav in that timeframe and while still with 7 Army?

Oh, and Corbis gives a 1989 date for the photo with the M551 and the mortar track- we're dealing with real eggspurts there. Laughing



Jens O.
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

M106A1 is what the carrier looks like to me. When I was with 3/12 Cav from 73-76 we had 6 M551's, An M106A1 4.2" mortar carrier and an infantry squad in an M113A1. The poor infantry guys always got stuck with all the work details at Graf.

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

- Jens_O_Mehner
Weeelll,

On a related note, would anybody have the TO&E available for 11 Cav in that timeframe and while still with 7 Army?



Jens O.


The guys and site that could help you with that, Jens, are over at:

www.eaglehorse.org

That whole period of the 11th Cav in Germany is what that site is all about. Might be some info already posted if ya' look around. It's a big website.

You might even find some interesting features on, say, M551's and Lingles, if you know where to look. Wink

D.
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Buq-Buq
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:58 pm
Post subject: Re: 11th ACR (OP Alpha?) 01MAY79

Hey guys:

I was wondering if anyone could help me out with the Cav TO&Es in Europe from this timeframe. Mark Holloway has indicated that his squadron (3/12 Cav) had what might be described as the "European Cavalry" TO&E. The little pamphlet TC 17-36-2 "Armored Cavalry Platoon: Organization and Techniques of Movement" sums up this organization thusly:

"In the USAREUR cav platoon, the five standard scout vehicles found in a conventional cav platoon have been replaced by three additional Sheridans giving the platoon a total of six. The platoon still has the standard rifle squad." As indicated by the diagrams in the pamphlet, both the platoon leader and the platoon sergeant were mounted in M551s in this "European Cavalry" organization.

According to the Eaglehorse web site (http://www.eaglehorse.org/4_ftx_gunnery/equipment/m551_sheridan/sheridan5.htm — thanks, Doug!), it looks like the 2/14 ACR had the 'standard' cavalry troop TO&E in the early 1970s time frame, with three 'tanks' (M551s) and 5 scout vehicles (M114s): "The actual draw of Sheridans was a straight swap of the recon troop M60s for the M551s; three per platoon, nine per troop and so on. We still had the M114s, five per platoon, and Sheridans at this ratio until I left BK in 1971, what an organization ... Sheridans and M114s!"

On page 6 of the Sheridan section of the web site, it looks as if the 11th ACR changed its TO&E in about 1971-1972 to the "European Cavalry" platoon of 6 M551s, an M106 mortar track, and an M113 with an infantry squad: "During this year immediately prior to the re-flag of the 14th ACR to the 11th ACR, there were important developments in the Sheridan story. In Bad Kissingen and elsewhere, the M114s are turned in and three more M551s were issued to each cavalry platoon. The totals become six per platoon, eighteen per troop and fifty-four in the squadron." Apparently in 1974 this same TO&E still applied: "The three ground cavalry troops of the squadron (all three squadrons of the Regiment) were organized with three recon platoons. Each recon platoon had one M106A1 4.2 inch mortar carrier, one M113A1 infantry squad carrier, and six M551 Sheridans. So each troop has 18 Sheridans, or a total of 54 in the squadron." but was changed slightly soon after: "While I was in the squadron there were two significant changes to the above. We reorganized the recon platoons, replacing the infantry squad with two scout squads. This added an additional M113A1 to each platoon. These scout squads were also fielded with the Dragon medium anti-tank guided missile. We also transitioned from the M551 to the M551A1."

Can anyone else shed any light on this "European Cavalry" TO&E? Russ Vaughan, what was your situation in 2 ACR? By the way, Russ, post more of your pictures, please; I love them.

Smile

Robert Stefanowicz provides an interesting re-telling of the process of turning in the M551s and training the crews to switch over to M60A1s in the spring of 1978 (page 6 of the Eaglehorse web site section on the Sheridan). What Mr. Stefanowicz doesn't discuss is the arrival of all those extra M113s that weren't included in the "European Cavalry" TO&E. I would think that there would have had to have been an influx of new 19D personnel as well.

As a side note, if you haven't checked out the Eaglehorse web site referenced above, and you have even a passing interest in the Sheridan, do so. There is so much wonderful, nuanced information there on the vehicle. It would have been great to have had more stuff like that in the Hunnicutt tome. Thanks to everyone for all of the interesting input.

OK, I'm off.




Mark Neukom
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