±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 612
Total: 612
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Your Account
03: Your Account
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Photo Gallery
07: Downloads
08: Photo Gallery
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: News Archive
14: Home
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Member Screenshots
18: Community Forums
19: Downloads
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Photo Gallery
29: Your Account
30: Photo Gallery
31: Member Screenshots
32: CPGlang
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Downloads
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Downloads
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Downloads
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Member Screenshots
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: News Archive
55: Statistics
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Photo Gallery
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: News Archive
72: Community Forums
73: Home
74: Community Forums
75: Downloads
76: Member Screenshots
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Your Account
81: Statistics
82: Community Forums
83: Photo Gallery
84: Community Forums
85: Downloads
86: Community Forums
87: CPGlang
88: Member Screenshots
89: Photo Gallery
90: CPGlang
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Photo Gallery
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: CPGlang
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Home
108: Downloads
109: Photo Gallery
110: Downloads
111: Downloads
112: Member Screenshots
113: Home
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Your Account
120: Photo Gallery
121: Home
122: Statistics
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Downloads
126: Home
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Downloads
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Community Forums
135: Member Screenshots
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: Photo Gallery
139: Member Screenshots
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Photo Gallery
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Your Account
149: Downloads
150: Community Forums
151: Downloads
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Statistics
155: News Archive
156: Your Account
157: Photo Gallery
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Downloads
163: Statistics
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Downloads
169: Your Account
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Statistics
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Home
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: Community Forums
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: CPGlang
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Home
197: Home
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Downloads
207: Community Forums
208: Home
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Home
214: Photo Gallery
215: Downloads
216: CPGlang
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Downloads
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Downloads
227: Downloads
228: Community Forums
229: Home
230: Downloads
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Downloads
234: Community Forums
235: Downloads
236: Home
237: Photo Gallery
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Photo Gallery
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Downloads
251: Community Forums
252: Home
253: Downloads
254: Photo Gallery
255: Downloads
256: Community Forums
257: Downloads
258: News Archive
259: Photo Gallery
260: Downloads
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Photo Gallery
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: Downloads
272: News Archive
273: Home
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Home
277: Downloads
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Photo Gallery
289: Home
290: Photo Gallery
291: Photo Gallery
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Your Account
295: Community Forums
296: Photo Gallery
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Home
303: Photo Gallery
304: Home
305: Community Forums
306: Home
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Photo Gallery
316: Community Forums
317: Photo Gallery
318: Statistics
319: Home
320: Community Forums
321: Home
322: Home
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Your Account
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Photo Gallery
334: Photo Gallery
335: Photo Gallery
336: Community Forums
337: Photo Gallery
338: Home
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Downloads
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Home
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Photo Gallery
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Photo Gallery
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: Home
374: Home
375: Home
376: Home
377: CPGlang
378: Community Forums
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Downloads
383: Photo Gallery
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Downloads
388: Photo Gallery
389: Member Screenshots
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Home
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Statistics
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Photo Gallery
409: Photo Gallery
410: Home
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Home
418: Your Account
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Your Account
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Home
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Downloads
432: Home
433: Downloads
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Photo Gallery
437: Photo Gallery
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Photo Gallery
441: CPGlang
442: CPGlang
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Community Forums
449: Home
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Photo Gallery
457: Community Forums
458: Downloads
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: News
470: Downloads
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Home
478: Photo Gallery
479: Community Forums
480: Home
481: Community Forums
482: Home
483: Downloads
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Photo Gallery
487: Community Forums
488: Downloads
489: Photo Gallery
490: Home
491: Community Forums
492: Home
493: Home
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Downloads
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Photo Gallery
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Home
515: Home
516: Photo Gallery
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Home
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Home
528: Community Forums
529: Home
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Community Forums
534: Home
535: Community Forums
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Photo Gallery
539: Home
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Downloads
544: Community Forums
545: Member Screenshots
546: Photo Gallery
547: Member Screenshots
548: Community Forums
549: Photo Gallery
550: Photo Gallery
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Home
554: Community Forums
555: Your Account
556: Home
557: Photo Gallery
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Home
561: Home
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Photo Gallery
565: Community Forums
566: CPGlang
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Downloads
570: Community Forums
571: Home
572: Photo Gallery
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Downloads
576: Downloads
577: Photo Gallery
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Home
583: Community Forums
584: Photo Gallery
585: Community Forums
586: Your Account
587: Your Account
588: Home
589: Home
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Downloads
605: Community Forums
606: Home
607: Community Forums
608: Photo Gallery
609: Photo Gallery
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tanklord
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 817
Location: Louisiana
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:36 pm
Post subject: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

I have been looking at a lot of drawings and pictures of these vehicles, and to my untrained eye, it appears that this suspension was simpler in design than the inter-leaved road-wheels on production Tigers. Is this in fact the truth, or was there faults in the design that were not visually apparent? Confused

_________________
The only thing to do when a son-of-a-bitch looks
cross-eyed at you is to beat the hell out of him right
then and there
Back to top
View user's profile Yahoo Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

remember the Elefant was based on the Porche Tiger Chassis not the Henshel one which actually won the competition and became the Standard Tiger tank. ( I think I got that right)

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:40 am
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

I wouldn't say a simpler suspension, different is probably a better word (did Porsche ever make something simple?). 6 boogies connected to longitudinal torsion bars. I need to fill in some blanks on this myself before I can give a more exhaustive answer.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:08 am
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

- Tanklord
I have been looking at a lot of drawings and pictures of these vehicles, and to my untrained eye, it appears that this suspension was simpler in design than the inter-leaved road-wheels on production Tigers. Is this in fact the truth, or was there faults in the design that were not visually apparent? Confused


Explain simple.... Smile

In terms of suspension, I'm not sure it was particularily simple. In a normal torsionbar suspension, you have a swingarm connected directly to a torsionbar running the width of the hull, so that movement of the wheel, acts on the swingarm which twists the torsionbar. Pretty straight forward.
As I understand the Porsche suspension, you got a fixed arm mounted on the hull, holding another arm which holds the two-wheel assembly where the wheels are mounted on a cylinder with a short, longitudinal torsion bar. When the wheels move, they act on the torsionbar by means of cams, acting on a ball which in effect turns the motion 90 degrees to work on the torsionbar. There seems to be a more independently moving parts, acting together in turning the forces involved and the short torsionbar allowed less movement of the wheel and resulted in a harder suspension, IIRC.

The Porsche suspension obviously had fewer roadwheels, which would be considered less complicated. However, the many roadwheels on the interleaved suspension distributed the weight of the vehicle much more evenly along the track, resulting in a much better cross country performance. Even though nominal ground pressure (NGP) would be the same for two similar vehicles regardless of the suspension type, the mean maximum (ground)pressure (MMP), which does a better job of describing how tanks actually perform, was a lot less with the interleaved suspension.

Where the Porsche suspension might have been simpler would be in hull manufacture, as the "normal" torsionbar suspension required some precision drilling of holes in the side armour, while the Porsche unit was bolted on, requiring a lot less work (140 hours vs 360 hours of work). The Porsche suspension was also lighter by about 2.7 tons and required less rawmateriels. This was the reason why the Porsche suspension was tried out on the Jagdtiger.
Back to top
View user's profile
A2_Prius
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 27, 2006
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:46 am
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

It's always been my understanding that, while the interleaved wheel suspension used on the Tiger and Panther made for better weight distribution and perhaps a smoother ride, they had the potential to create operational problems. Mud or snow/ice packed between the wheels led to immobilized vehicles. I read somewhere about panzertruppen using grenades during the Russian winters to "free up" their vehicles' suspensions after they had been parked overnight.
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:03 am
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

- A2_Prius
It's always been my understanding that, while the interleaved wheel suspension used on the Tiger and Panther made for better weight distribution and perhaps a smoother ride, they had the potential to create operational problems. Mud or snow/ice packed between the wheels led to immobilized vehicles. I read somewhere about panzertruppen using grenades during the Russian winters to "free up" their vehicles' suspensions after they had been parked overnight.


You wouldn't happen to have a reference to this? I've seen this argument made many times over, but I dont recall it ever being documented in any way (i.e. with a reference to a primary source). The Germans used interleaved suspensions on tens of thousands of vehicles going back to the mid-1930ies, so I'd think that there would be a report or two on mud and ice packing problems - if there were any.

Frankly, I suspect it is an urban legend.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
Tanklord
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 817
Location: Louisiana
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

I jost got through reading "Tigers in the Mud: by Otto Carius, and "Armor Battles of the Waffen-SS" by Willie Fey and neither mentioned this mud packing problem.


Last edited by Tanklord on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Yahoo Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

Even without mudpacking problems The effort required to replace an inner roadwheel is enormous. Up to 5roadwheels have to be removed to get to an inner wheel. Compared to a conventional system where only the outer wheel of the pair has to be removed (Are inner and outer wheels secured with a single set of bolts and nuts? which would make it even simpler) it seems like a whol lot more work than neccesary in the field.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

- bsmart
Even without mudpacking problems The effort required to replace an inner roadwheel is enormous. Up to 5roadwheels have to be removed to get to an inner wheel. Compared to a conventional system where only the outer wheel of the pair has to be removed (Are inner and outer wheels secured with a single set of bolts and nuts? which would make it even simpler) it seems like a whol lot more work than neccesary in the field.


I guess it is a trade off: Great off-road mobility vs a ton of work if you need to replace a wheel (mine damage, for example) or a torsionbar. Probably not much of an issue with the towing vehicles (half-tracks) which pioneered the system, more so with combat vehicles.

Still, the advantage in off-road mobility is significant.
Back to top
View user's profile
Dubliner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Porsche" Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefant" Suspension

Claus may correct me, but I believe the final drive failure rate would have been much higher for the Panther and Tigers had they not had interleaved and overlapped type suspensions. Reducing MMP reduces the amount of power a tracked vehicle requires to turn on soft ground which means less stress on the transmission and final drive.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum