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Trying to Date Photo & Location
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:31 pm
Post subject: Trying to Date Photo & Location

I'm wondering where and when this was taken? Must have been early 60's? I thought maybe Korea but was the 1st Cav in Korea? Bonus points for IDing unit crest.



SLIGHTLY BIGGER: farm1.static.flickr.co...16e8_o.jpg

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Last edited by MarkHolloway on Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

Were kepi hats worn into the '60's? What year did they go out?

Nice ascot! (too dark for cavalry, I'm guessing infantry or arty.)
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

I'm thinking the M113 makes it a 1960's photo. I read that the 1st CD went to Nam in '65. This is a permanent building so it must be stateside(?) That would make it pre 1965. I think the 1st CD came out of Benning to go to Nam. Sign on building could be arty. For sure not Cav.

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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

I would say it is between 1960 and 1963 based on the track and his uniform and that it is stateside. The development of the airmobile units started in 1963. The 1st had become airmobile by the time they went to Nam in 1965. The 11th Air Assault Division (test) became the 1st Cavalry Division (airmobile) in July 1965.
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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:41 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

Has to be Korea. 1st CAV DIV couldn't come stateside because they lost their colors in Korea during the war. 11th Air Assault Division left Benning for `Nam. They got reflaged as 1st CAV when they got there. The 1st CAV in Korea got reflaged as 2ndINF DIV at the same time.
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:53 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

they lost their colors in Korea


Ouch, Ouch, Ouch.

That myth will start a fight.

I'm not 1st CD Alumni, but I'm sure there are some that will take issue with that statement. (Dontos may shed some light on this)

Joe D
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:35 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

I did some checkin'. Looks like 1st Cav left Korea during the Korean War and went to Japan. Stayed there until 1957 then returned to Korea. Stayed there until 1965 when they were relieved by 2nd ID. 11th Air Assault was reflagged as 1st CD at Fort Benning (1965) and 1st CD deployed to Viet Nam.

Occupation duty (Japan) ended August 29, 1957 when, in accordance with a treaty signed by both Japan and the United States, defense of the Japanese mainland was turned over to the Japanese Defense Forces and all U.S. ground forces were removed. The 1st Cavalry Division was ordered to move its colors once again to Korea. The Division continued to serve overseas as part of the U.S. commitment to defend South Korea. During this period the First Team went through reorganizations and fielded new equipment, all while patrolling the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) that separated North and South Korea. The Division also began to field helicopters in the spring of 1963 and train in airmobile tactics. In July of 1965 the First Team was reorganized as the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile) and officially activated at Fort Benning, Georgia out of personnel from the 11th Air Assault Division (Test). Their duties in Korea were turned over to the 2nd Infantry Division, and one month later the First Team was in route to Vietnam.

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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:39 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

So, does anyone know when the M113 was fielded in Korea?

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:02 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

Who's to say that M113 belongs to 1CD.

Could be it's there to support the range/exercise and was a tasking given to another post unit or the school house, much like we did in Knox. If this is Benning I'm sure there were plenty of them there. I believe it's to early of a time period in Korea to have a structure like that on a range.

Joe D
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:25 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

God point, Joe. So when was the M113 fielded Army-wide? That would narrow down the date. For example if the M113 wasn't fielded until 1960 then we know the photo is after 1960.

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

Hi Mark!

No earlier than January 1960, no later than September 1965.

Production started January 1960 per Hunnicutt's Bradley book, page 82.

Per Wilbur H. Morrison's The Elephant & the Tiger, page 188, the 1st Cavalry Division (1st CD) elements started arriving in September 1965. Also Shawn posted that the 11th Air Assault was reflaged in July of 1965.

At the time the 11th Air Assault Division (11th AAD) stood up at Ft. Benning, the 2nd Infantry Division (2nd ID) was station there. During the field trials, the 11th AAD only had helicopter based units. Infantry and all other non-helicopter type units came from the 2nd ID. My father was a crew chief on a UH-34 helicopter which was part of an artillery battalion. The artillery part was testing different types of 2.75 rocket pods mounted on those UH-34s.

The 11thAAD and the 2ndID were combined to form the 1st Cavarly Division. 11th AAD colors where retired and 2nd ID colors where transfered to Korea to replaced the 1st CD colors there. In my dad's case, his artillery battalion stood down and he was sent to Germany. Most UH-34s were turned in or remained at Ft. Benning. UH-1s were pulled from all over the Army to max the number of them in the new 1st CD.

About that war story on the 1st CD's colors. I first heard that war story back in 1966 during my first tour in Vietnam with the Marines. The story I heard was that during the retreat from the Chosin reservior area, two U.S. military units lost their colors. The Army's 1st CD and an Marine air support squadron. The Marine unit was put into the line as an infantry, got over ran, and destoryed by the CCF.

I don't know, but after Vietnam, the 1st CD colors were tranferred to Ft. Hood, Texas. If honor WAS lost during Korea, then it was regained during Vietnam.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:08 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

- Roy_A_Lingle

About that war story on the 1st CD's colors. I first heard that war story back in 1966 during my first tour in Vietnam with the Marines. The story I heard was that during the retreat from the Chosin reservior area, two U.S. military units lost their colors. The Army's 1st CD and an Marine air support squadron. The Marine unit was put into the line as an infantry, got over ran, and destoryed by the CCF.



July 1950: 1st CAV deployed to Korea from Japan.(Prior to that, over 750 had been 'gutted' to augment 24th ID, leaving 1st CAV short of experienced personnel)

15 July - 26 July: After relieving 21st & 24th ID, 1CD elements committed constant withdrawls. Many were made with little or no NKPA pressure.

This was one of the reasons Gen Walker made his famous 'STAND OR DIE' directive to all 8th Army Forces. This is also concurrent to the establishment of the 'Pusan Perimeter'.


I believe it is from this time period that the 'lost honor' may have arisen.

Additionally, in Nov 1950 in Northern most Korea, the CCF joined in to 'save' the NKPA. 1st CAV elements were 'mauled' during this period. 3/8 CAV suffered 600+ casualties, and basically ceased to exist.

I had read somewhere, that this is the time period that the Divisions Colors were actually lost, but can't seem to find that reference at this time.

Dec 1951: 1st Cav Div is rotated to Japan (Combat ineffective...?)

1951 - 1956: 1st CAV assigned to duties in Japan

1956 - 1965: 1st CAV assigned to DMZ duties in ROK

3 July 1965: 1st CAV DIV (Airmobile) designated at Ft Benning

28 July 1965: 1st CAV DIV assigned to operations in RSVN


I don't know, but after Vietnam, the 1st CD colors were tranferred to Ft. Hood, Texas.


Correct

If honor WAS lost during Korea, then it was regained during Vietnam.


Correct, again

Being a 2nd Generation 'FIRST TEAM' association lifetime member, I actually learned something, trying to collect the info for this 'challanged' (ala JoeD) response.

Hope I haven't bored anyone with all this.

Don
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:16 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

The story about "Lost Colors" floats around a lot in South Korea and the Pacific. Every time I was in Korea sooner or later some "Know it all" would bring it up to a soldier coming from 1 CD. They even had a little saying, "The horse they never rode, the river they never crossed and the color for what they are". Not true.

According to the Army Web site, Center of Military Heraldry under Lineage and Honors. No colors were ever lost by any Army unit in Korea. The question is raised so often that they actually have it under "FAQ's" on their site. It's hard to kill these myths. Some people might argue that the Army's official line is more likely to put a positive spin on things, especially being it involves an active unit such as the 1CD. Personally I always thought it was envy or jealousy.

Similar story floated around in PACAF about a certain Wing who bugged out leaving all their ground personnel behind to fend for themselves. This particular myth gains credence because they never have been stationed Stateside.



The patch doesn't help either.

Anyone care to guess the unit ? They are still active today.

Joe D
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:19 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

- Dontos


...that the 'lost honor' may have arisen.

I had read somewhere, that this is the time period that the Divisions Colors were actually lost, but can't seem to find that reference at this time.

Being a 2nd Generation 'FIRST TEAM' association lifetime member, I actually learned something, trying to collect the info for this 'challanged' (ala JoeD) response.

Hope I haven't bored anyone with all this.


I for one, am not bored. I have always wondered if it was true or just another war story. One thing that surpised later, after I left the Marines and joined the Army, I again heard that same story about the 1st CD during the Korean War.

Let me know if you find anything else Don.
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:53 am
Post subject: Re: Trying to Date Photo & Location

From WIKIPEDIA:

During the Korean War, the 1st Cavalry Division began to have rumors about its fighting capability circulate, in part due to a folk song of the time called "The Bug-Out Ballad". It was also rumored that the series of engagements that gave rise to the song were due (at least partly) of the myth that the Division lost its unit colors. Other Army and Marine units disparagingly described the division shoulder insignia as representing 'The horse they never rode, the river they never crossed, and the yellow speaks for itself'. Another version goes: "The shield they never used, the line they never held, the horse they never rode, and the yellow speaks for itself." The incident that apparently gave rise to this false rumor appears to be the Unsan Engagement which took place on 1 and 2 November 1950 at Unsan, Korea. In that battle, the 8th Cavalry, a component of the 1st Cavalry Division, was pushed back from positions in and around the town of Unsan by vastly superior Chinese forces. The regiment was severely battered, suffering heavy casualties and losing a considerable amount of equipment. This was one of the first major Chinese operations in the Korean War and, like the Changjin (Chosin) Reservoir Battle of this same period, it took the United Nations Command by surprise. Considering the circumstances, the 8th Cavalry fought very well, and it has never been criticized for its conduct in this operation.

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