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M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:33 am
Post subject: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2450826580101845556RyYySZ

Hello,

coming back from the Saumur Tank Museum, i have a question for the Sherman experts.
Here is a photo of an M4A3 (doesn't seems to be an M4A2..) hull stored outside at Saumur. I realized that it has British fittings for spare tracks on the front glacis.
Having looked to the number of M4A3 delivered to the British troops by the USA, it seems that only 7 M4A3 (75) were ever delivered and no one was transformed into Firefly, they all kept their 75mm guns.
This would make this hull a very rare example of British Sherman IV.. any thoughts? Could someone confirm this?

kind regards,

Pierre-Olivier

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claude_GILLONO
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:43 am
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

Hi!
I see an opened small grill hatch, making that an M4A2 hull.
HTH
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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:12 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

Yes, it's a small hatch M4A2.
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:12 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

Looking closely, I see a lot of track visible down the side so I'm thinking it's missing many roadwheels.

It's interesting that it has extended end connectors, though - I'm not sure I've seen British Shermans use that (though at my age it could just be my memory!). Could it be ex-French?

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:27 am
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

- TrevorLarkum
Looking closely, I see a lot of track visible down the side so I'm thinking it's missing many roadwheels.

It's interesting that it has extended end connectors, though - I'm not sure I've seen British Shermans use that (though at my age it could just be my memory!). Could it be ex-French?


Trevor,

I don't know if roadwheels are missing, but for sure the left-side track is not there.
The elements on the front hulls really look like typical British fittings for spare tracks, but of course the tank comes from an ex-French army fire range. However, I don't know if it served with the French army..

Pierre-Olivier

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:56 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

Sounds like it had a varied career!

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claude_GILLONO
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:11 am
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

I searched the French Sherman history for my book and I still have to find info on the delivery of replacement tanks after the Lend-Lease shipments to French North Africa in 1943 and early 1944.

My theory.
We know the French got M4A2s and M4A1s through LL and that they served along (1e and 5e DB) US troops or with (2e DB) US troops in the 6th Army Group with 7th army.
But the US logistics could not supply replacement M4A2s and M4A4s because they used M4s-M4A1s-M4A3s.
So the French mainly got new-built M4A1 76s plus remanufactured M4A1 75s, M4A2 75s from the US depots and most probably the Sherman IIIs and Vs (M4A2s, M4A4s) Monty handed them during/immediately after the Battle of the Bulge when the US asked for Shermans to replace their own losses, because they did not have the supply parts for them while the French had them.
Hence the British fittings! Et voilĂ  !
The 2e DB case is more complicated because the division got M4A3s beginning in August 1944 and later M4A1 75s from the US depots of 3rd and later 7th Army.
HTH
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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:23 pm
Post subject: Transfer of vehicles to France

The Foreign Aid (Lend-Lease) records of deliveries to France do not give a complete record of the US vehicles they received. Many were transferred "intra-theater" which were covered under a separate accounting system.

KL
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claude_GILLONO
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:22 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

Hi Kurt
Do you data on these transfers regarding French AFVs 1944-1945?
TIA
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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:00 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

No, but maybe Joe DeMarco does.

If you can get close to that tank you can look for the the stamped-in chassis number on the glacis. That's a unique AdT marking and would be proof they used it.

KL
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:45 am
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

- Kurt_Laughlin
If you can get close to that tank you can look for the the stamped-in chassis number on the glacis. That's a unique AdT marking and would be proof they used it.

KL


like this marking?



P-O

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:21 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

Yes - exactly.

That should be on an M4A3(75)W if I'm not mistaken.

KL
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:52 am
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

- Kurt_Laughlin
Yes - exactly.

That should be on an M4A3(75)W if I'm not mistaken.

KL


yes, that's right. This is this particular tank :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Tanks_in_France/sherman_blr/index.html

- Kurt_Laughlin
If you can get close to that tank you can look for the the stamped-in chassis number on the glacis. That's a unique AdT marking and would be proof they used it


I'll try to find a marking next time I go to the Saumur museum.. infortunately this Sherman tank hull is in the "forbidden zone" of the Saumur museum, but I could be lucky enough and have a very quick look..


P-O

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:53 am
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

Now that's an odd bird . . . It has an M4 engine deck BUT the hull rear is M4A3 BUT there are no engine door supports - or evidence of removal - on the sponsons. Is this an "M4A3T"??

Also, the M4A4T "NORVEGE" at Mourmelon is S/N 4825, only the 21st M4A4 built, perhaps one of the oldest Shermans in France. Only 800 Shermans of all types had been built when 4825 left the factory.

KL
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:16 am
Post subject: Re: M4A3 Sherman @ Saumur (possibly British Sherman IV)

FYI, the M4A2 at Saumur has the SN 14815 on each of the rear tow lugs.

P-O

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