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Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:04 pm
Post subject: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Got back about two hours ago,

Here are some quick pictures:

Front

Rear

Left side final drive housing # 525

Left side hull front lower corner # E93

Top front hull next to driver's hatch cast mark

Right side turret cast # 203

Turret top right side behind mantle cast #7067400

Left rear tow no SN

Right rear tow lug "MISSING !!!"

It's a conspiracy!!!!!

No one at the place to ask questions. Monument was dedicated in 1989.

I have many more pictures, could not get inside, hatches were welded.

Let the discussion begin .

I'm gonna slam a few beer's and crash. Too many Red Bulls Mr. Green

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:25 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Good result!

Some initial observations:

- Missing original bow MG mount
- Missing original engine deck
- Something wrong with main gun? Can't quite tell - could be at full recoil, could be fake?

Joe, any close-ups of the memorial? I think I can make out "All Gave Some. Some Gave All. They will not be forgotten" but nothing else.

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

yeah that's really fine !!

P-O

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Buq-Buq
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:11 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Alf, Joe:

Good job — a nice bit of AFV sleuthing. And it all started with a spin on Google Maps!

The tank looks odd with the 3-piece differential cover/transmission cover/whatchamacallit.

How is it that a tank this rare has been there — for years, apparently — and the armor community doesn't know about it? I would have thought that every surviving M4A3E2 would have been fairly well documented.

I guess that's what "The List" is all about . . .




Mark
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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Hey Joe, Thanks alot!

okay-- they parked, chocked it, and they were done.

See, this is were one look is worth a thousand reports!... I wish I could eyeball it. Besides the 3 pc. trans/differentail housing it has an earlier drive sprocket, it looks like it has a mix of cast and stamped road wheels...


Will you be posting the rest of the pics online? I would like to see those as well please.

SR
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Trevor,

Here is a picture of the monument up close,

Monument

Gun is not fake, is a 75mm but has a cap/plate welded over muzzle.

Gun

Gun mantle shroud

I am no Sherman expert but to me I think the armoured shroud of the mantle makes the gun look shorter than it is. Those 75mm's were kinda stubby to start with.

I took over 200 pictures of just about every surface area, keeping in mind what a model builder would like to see.

Buq-Buq (Mark),

You got to credit Alf for the discovery, it was probably one of those sleepless nights where he was playing with Google Maps when he found her (I do the same for M60's). I just did the leg work, which I enjoy doing and keeps me out of trouble. The big question is, where did She come from, I plan to find out soon.

I guess I can be one of CC's "On call Field Agent/trackers" so to say Laughing

Shawn,
I will post most on line soon. About the transaxle/diff housing. I think Kurt said it all, not original and is a replacement from another tank, doesn't make sense to not have a heavy armored on there when you go through the trouble everywhere else. Although the mating of the two look like it was done to prolong it's service life instead of a lash-up for display.

I don't plan on going back anytime soon but it is not far from where I travel on occasion, so if I missed something and the info is needed, I can get it within reason.

I have to be in Memphis this afternoon.

How many "Jumbo's" are actually out there ???

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:33 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Joe - FANTASTIC!!! Excellent work. Although the lugs are missing that E93 on the front left is just as good. Grand Blanc Tank Arsenal (Fisher Body) stamped the sequential build number in this location on their tanks. The letter changed based on the model but this tank is almost certainly the 93rd built, making it S/N 50418, R/N 3083015. The turret serial 203 is very helpful because that's often the only mark distinguishable in photos. (Remember that was key to IDing COBRA KING.)

There were only 254 M4A3E2s built and all but four were shipped to the ETO. I think there are only five or six survivors in the US, less than ten in the world.

And before we forget, kudos to Alf Adams for initially spotting this - Keep looking Alf!!

KL
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:04 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

To add a little statistical dribble, here is some stuff I have put together....

1)Portola Valley Ca - SN 50331 - RN 3082929 - Turret# 111
2)Ft Knox KY - SN 50429 - RN 3083026 - Turret# ?
3)Camp Ripley Mn - SN 50455 - RN 3083052 - Turret# ?
4)Camp Ripley Mn - SN ? - RN 3082947 - Turret# 152
5)Carbon Hill Al - SN 50418* -RN 3083015*- Turret# 203
6)Cobra King(Ger) - SN 50487 - RN 3083084 - Turret# 138

Hows that? If any corrections or others existing, I'd be interested in adding them to this list.

Great Job Joe
Don
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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:49 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Joe-you da man!! Great job making the trip and getting the pics! It sure looks funny with the 3-piece differential cover.

Kurt-thanks for posting the other info about the Jumbos. I'll be contacting you for sure later this summer about a Jumbo project.

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Alf_Adams
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:51 am
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Let me first add my congrats to Joe D for making the trip to check out this tank. Believe me I would have if I lived closer than the several days it would take to get there. The thought did cross my mind though. I'm just very glad to have been a part of identifying this rare beast. Now for a question about it. I remember reading somewhere that all of the Jumbos were made without headlights. I just checked my copy of Hunnicutts Sherman, and the 2 Jumbo pictures on page 321 both show no headlights. In addition I checked some old photos of my own, 1 of the vehicle at the Camp Ripley Museum taken in 1997, and another of the Fort Knox example, taken during a visit to the LST building in 1999. Both show no headlights. Can anyone explain why the Carbon Hill tank has them?

Alf
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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Alf, it appears that the surviving M4A3E2s were brought back to the states after the war and remained in service for years afterward. The lights were probably added then just for practicality. If you look in Hunnicutt pages 415 and 417 you'll see two that not only had headlights added but HVSS as well.

KL
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Obviously they didn't have them initially, but were perhaps an MWO once in service.

Official photos & drawings have no headlights:



Don
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Joe, thanks for the memorial pic - I'm always interested in the background to tanks being used as memorials.

Well done to Alf for discovering it, and everyone for contributing info.

Dontos - that's a good list of Jumbos, but don't forget my favourite - the one in Belgium (turret #188). I had the honour of visiting and photographing it while it was still at Hermeton-sur-Meuse at the start of my tank hunting 'career', travelling around Europe by bike in 1982 at the tender age of 17. It had an impact on me - perhaps because it appeared to just have stopped by the roadside waiting for its crew to climb back in. The hatches were open, and you could just climb inside yourself. I've put some pictures and information here (my original pics, and a more recent one from Wikimedia of it now in Brussels):

preservedtanks.com/Loc...&Select=15

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Wow, thanks Trevor

Amazing that it was just sitting along the road lie that.

Although there is no numerical sequence of TN's (Turret #'s) as they were assembled with sequential RN/SN hulls, I'm curious what the actual RN/SN's are for that Jumbo (ie TN # 188).

Its obviously not RN 3083084 (SN 50487) as that is the REAL Cobra King data, located at Vilseck.

Tanks alot
Don
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Carbon Hill AL M4A3E2 Jumbo (Yes it is)

Yeah, back in the old days I would find tanks beside the road or in the hedgerows (the Sherman at Beffe comes to mind) but now they have virtually all been moved and put into museums or made into memorials. Although I can see the sense in that, there was something very special about finding a tank 'in situ' that I think has now been lost.

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