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Surviving Panzers website
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:35 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)


Array:
I also found an 4-digit number on the left front tow hook of the M48A5
Is this correct, or should there be some more digits?

If you mean left front as if you are seated in the drivers position, yes that should be it.


that is the one

Would you like to have it?

Michel

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Yes,

I can add it to my data base, thanks.

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Hi Joe,

serial number is 2128



This M48A5 has been "converted" to instruction model
Meaning that big pieces of turret and hull armour have been cut away to give an view of the inside

It was already like that when the vehicle it was bought

Because it is quite difficult to export military armed and armored vehicle from the US to Europe (US laws) this tank most likely belonged to an European country

Michel

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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:11 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Thanks Michel!
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:05 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

- Joe_D
I also found an 4-digit number on the left front tow hook of the M48A5
Is this correct, or should there be some more digits?


If you mean left front as if you are seated in the drivers position, yes that should be it. Sometimes they will end with a "C" when stamped on the back deck and hull, but not always.


But Joe, dont normally A5s have an SN that starts with an A followed by a 4-digit number?

M48A5 SNs I have so far:

SN A3008 Armed Forces Retirement Home – Washington, DC
SN A3055 DAV Chapter 76, Hanceville, AL
SN A3177 American Armored Foundation (AAF) Tank Museum, Danville, VA
SN A3473 Museum Storage Lot, Fort Campbell, KY
SN A10617 War Memorial Park, Linton, ND
SN A10848 VFW Post 7377, Cresson, PA (Unconfirmed)
SN A10927 Richardson Motor Pool Patton Museum Annex, Fort Knox, KY

SN A1B072 (AVLB) 58th Engineer Battalion HQ, Fort Irwin, CA

But I also have the following for M48A5s:

SN 2872 Veterans' Memorial Park, Ooltewah, TN
SN 3016 American Legion Post 162, Luzerne, MI (Unconfirmed)
SN 4494 (M48A5E1 Patton) Richardson Motor Pool Patton Museum Annex, Fort Knox, KY
SN 5934 (M48A5 hull with M60A2 turret) VFW Post 1181, Valley Station, KY
SN 10960 Arcadia Memorial Park, Arcadia, WI

Similar to M60A3s, do the SNs without an A signify "new build" (as opposed to upgraded) A5s?

Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

IAW the TM all the SN's for M48A5's start with an "A".

New numbers assigned when converted from A1's and A3's. That number doesn't look right either. Normally they are stamped top to bottom of the lug, not across or that high. I'm wondering if this one started off as an A2 with the German Army and was converted to A5 standards by them. A good indicator would be the front hull mount for the compensating idlers. If she didn't have the adapter mount welded on when upgraded to A5 then she started life as an A2 and most likely was from Germany. Got to see more pictures of her to tell.

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:13 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Got to see more pictures of her to tell


I can help out with that part

Will upload some picture's of the tank

Concerning the version of the M48, I don't know if this is correct

Some of the forum experts told me that it was an M48A5 version,
because of some thingy some where.... Confused

That was before the "BIG BLACK-OUT"

I was not even sure if it was an M48...

Michel

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:08 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Hi folks,

got some picture's to show of the M48
If you have figured it out, let me know

There are no plates on the tank, so I can not tell you what is the country of origin



Michel

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:08 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Its an M48A5T2... ex-turkish army.

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Yep,

M48A2 converted from US supplied kits. Although to be 100% sure she was an A2, you need to see the idler mounting lug on the hull. She still could be an A1 convert where they removed the 2nd and 4th support roller (can't tell from the picture).

M48 and M48A1 idler mount (This is from an A1)
M48A2,%20notice%20how%20much%20further%20the%20mount%20extends%20from%20the%20hull%20and%20the%20off%20set%20adjusting%20link%20mount.%20This%20was%20done%20to%20correct%20a%20weakness%20discovered%20during%20testing%20and%20was%20applied%20to%20the%20A2%20hull%20castings. [img]http://com-central.net/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10605/normal_m48a2%7E0.jpg[/img] M48A3,%20which%20were%20made%20by%20converting%20old%20M48A1's.%20An%20adapter%20lug%20was%20welded%20to%20the%20hull%20during%20the%20conversion.%20Also%20found%20on%20A5's,%20since%20they%20were%20made%20by%20converting%20A1's%20and%20A3's. [img]http://com-central.net/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10605/normal_m48a3%7E0.jpg[/img] M48A5.

This lug was also used on the M103 series when upgraded to A1/A2 standard, since She also suffered from the same design defect as the early M48's.

Hope this helps

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Hi folks,

I don't have an picture of the idler mounting, so I can not say what version the original might have been

However I was planning to go back to the museum in about one month, so I could check (if I don't forget)
They are rebuilding an International Harvester M-1-4 1/2 ton truck and I want to check how it looks like when finished

Michel

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Neil,

I was curious about your A5 list of SN's and looked at it again. This is what I got:

SN 2872 Veterans' Memorial Park, Ooltewah, TN

That's the M48A1 SN. The A5 number is A1056C. I didn't recognize the location at first. I have her at College Park TN just down the road from the Little Debbie Snack Cake Bakery, 35.062555,-85.069135.

SN 4494 (M48A5E1 Patton) Richardson Motor Pool Patton Museum Annex, Fort Knox, KY

This one retains her original SN, That's because she's a one off using an M60A2 hull with M48A5 turret.

SN 5934 (M48A5 hull with M60A2 turret) VFW Post 1181, Valley Station, KY

The SN for her is for an M48A1 hull, which is correct since that's what she is.

Can't comment on the other two since I haven't seen them. I willing to bet the SN's were copied wrong or they aren't A5's.

Similar to M60A3s, do the SNs without an A signify "new build" (as opposed to upgraded) A5s?


By the end of 1959 all new production of M48's ceased and M60 commenced. Turret and hull castings were no longer available for new production. All A3's and A5's were made from what was originally M48/A1/A2 hulls and turrets. US models using A1 and A3 models for tanks and later some A2's for AVLB's. So no technically, no "New" A5's were made, although you can argue that they were new tanks since all that really remained was the hull and turret casting from the A1's, everything else inside and out being removed and replaced with newer components. Anniston and Red River did a lot of A3 conversions along with BMY. Then Anniston made all the A5's from these and A1's. "A" being Anniston build. No idea why it was later moved to the end of the SN with M60A3 production.

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

- Joe_D
Neil,

SN 4494 (M48A5E1 Patton) Richardson Motor Pool Patton Museum Annex, Fort Knox, KY

This one retains her original SN, That's because she's a one off using an M60A2 hull with M48A5 turret.

SN 5934 (M48A5 hull with M60A2 turret) VFW Post 1181, Valley Station, KY

The SN for her is for an M48A1 hull, which is correct since that's what she is.



Well we have nicknamed the M48 with an M60A2 the 'Frankentank' so what do we call an M60A2 with an M48 turret??

And I think we have the key to the whole Frankentank story -

A 2LT got confused in the shop one morning and didn't listen to his sergeant
[A Friday morning the 2LT comes back form officers call where he has found out what was supposed to be a routine friday has suddenly changed]
2LT - Sergeant we need at least one of those two tanks put back together right away. The colonel has decided that he wants a platoon of tanks in the background for the press conference with the congressman who is coming to visit this afternoon

Sergeant - But sir the M48 hull is still being worked on and the M60A2 turret still has problems

2LT - So put the gun turret on the M60 hull and we'll park it in the back of the picture. No one will really notice.

Sergeant - But sir?!?!

2LT - Sergeant The Colonel thinks it's important and I'm not going to disappoint the Colonel. we'll fix it next week

1 PM - Advance man for congresscritter shows up to make sure site is ready for 4 PM press conference

Adv Man - We can't have 5 tanks in the background it isn't balanced. I need another tank to balance the picture here in an hour. Colonel you realize how important this photo op is for the Congressmans support of the Defense Budget? And that includes the approval of the new general Officers list.

Colonel - Lieutenant get another tank over here NOW

2 LT - But Sir ---

Col - No but's lieutenant get your section to put a deadline tank here if you have to but get one over here

2LT running to phone to call the shop - Sergeant get the M60A2 turret on the M48 Hull and get it over to the parade ground in the next hour.

Sergeant - But Sir ---

2 LT - No buts sergeant we only need it for a photo op this afternoon - The colonel thinks it's important and I won't let him down and I know you won't let me down [hangs up the phone]

an hour later a 'Frankentank' is delivered on a transporter and gently unloaded to make sure the turret doesn't move

Next Monday other priorities get in the way and the two monstrosities are left in the back row of the maintenance yard. A month later the sergeant retires. a week after that the lieutenant rotates to a staff assignment. No one else wants to take a chance on undoing what was obviously a secret test modification until they find the documentation.

The rest as they say is history Mr. Green Mr. Green

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

- Joe_D


SN 5934 (M48A5 hull with M60A2 turret) VFW Post 1181, Valley Station, KY


The SN for her is for an M48A1 hull, which is correct since that's what she is.


Joe, actually I also have a rebuild SN 923B for this one?

Neil
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:40 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Well we have nicknamed the M48 with an M60A2 the 'Frankentank' so what do we call an M60A2 with an M48 turret??

Frankentank Junior Laughing Laughing Laughing

Massimo
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