±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 544
Total: 544
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Member Screenshots
16: Community Forums
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Community Forums
21: Photo Gallery
22: Photo Gallery
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Home
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Your Account
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Photo Gallery
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Your Account
51: Downloads
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Photo Gallery
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Photo Gallery
62: CPGlang
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Home
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Statistics
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Your Account
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Home
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Your Account
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Photo Gallery
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Home
117: Downloads
118: Downloads
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Statistics
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Statistics
128: Photo Gallery
129: Community Forums
130: Your Account
131: Community Forums
132: News Archive
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Home
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Home
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Home
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Member Screenshots
166: Your Account
167: Photo Gallery
168: News
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Your Account
174: Community Forums
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Home
183: Photo Gallery
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Contact
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Photo Gallery
207: Community Forums
208: Photo Gallery
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: CPGlang
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Downloads
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Your Account
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Downloads
237: Community Forums
238: Member Screenshots
239: Photo Gallery
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Photo Gallery
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Statistics
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Photo Gallery
266: Photo Gallery
267: Community Forums
268: Home
269: Photo Gallery
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: CPGlang
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Downloads
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Member Screenshots
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: News
297: Downloads
298: Photo Gallery
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: Downloads
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Your Account
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Photo Gallery
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: CPGlang
319: Community Forums
320: Photo Gallery
321: News
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Photo Gallery
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: CPGlang
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Downloads
339: Photo Gallery
340: Downloads
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Your Account
344: Community Forums
345: Photo Gallery
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Photo Gallery
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Home
355: Home
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Photo Gallery
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Downloads
366: Community Forums
367: Photo Gallery
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Photo Gallery
371: Home
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Downloads
375: Photo Gallery
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Your Account
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Home
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Downloads
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: Home
397: Home
398: Community Forums
399: CPGlang
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Home
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Downloads
407: Community Forums
408: Photo Gallery
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Home
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Photo Gallery
424: Photo Gallery
425: Community Forums
426: Photo Gallery
427: Downloads
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Home
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Home
435: Photo Gallery
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: CPGlang
439: Home
440: Community Forums
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Statistics
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Downloads
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Your Account
451: Community Forums
452: Home
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Community Forums
456: Photo Gallery
457: Photo Gallery
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Contact
461: Community Forums
462: Photo Gallery
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: CPGlang
468: Community Forums
469: Photo Gallery
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Statistics
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Photo Gallery
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Home
485: Community Forums
486: Photo Gallery
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Downloads
492: Community Forums
493: Home
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Home
498: Downloads
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Home
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Photo Gallery
518: Downloads
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Photo Gallery
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Photo Gallery
532: Community Forums
533: Home
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Member Screenshots
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Downloads
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:00 pm
Post subject: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Hello,

today I got the information that there was an M4A3 wreck on a fire range near Colmar. With a friend, we immediately went there and took some pictures this afternoon :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Tanks_in_France/sherman_saintecroix/index.html

We found the original RN on the side of the tank, and it reads something like 30115087x. The serial number could be something like 6205x or 6206x, which is part of a batch of 822 M4A4(75)W built by Fisher.

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Hi P-O:

If the 30115087 is accurate the "x" was probably just the "S" for radio suppression - Tanks of this era only had eight-digit RNs. The serial for that RN is 62065.

It looks like it might still have the data plate inside. That would confirm the SN. Also, with no paint the Fisher build number should be visible on the front left side.

Did you record the differential housing and upper hull plate casting information?

Good work!!

Thanks,
KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:43 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

- Kurt_Laughlin
Hi P-O:

If the 30115087 is accurate the "x" was probably just the "S" for radio suppression


Indeed the good number that I was able to read is 3011508x (the 7 was a mistake while writing the message)

- Kurt_Laughlin
It looks like it might still have the data plate inside. That would confirm the SN. Also, with no paint the Fisher build number should be visible on the front left side.

Did you record the differential housing and upper hull plate casting information?


There was no dataplate inside the tank. I did find the SN (which was only partially readable) on the tow lugs, but no SN was readable on the differential housing or the front armor plate. I do have some of the casting information (I did find some casting numbers on the final drive, turret base protection and bogies) :

Upper hull plate casting info :


P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

So is it an M4A3 or M4A4? Looking at the spacing of the bogies I would guess an M4A4.

But the engine seems to be a single V type. Could it have been re-engined after the war (I seem to remember the French re-engined a lot of shermans to a standard engine no matter what they started with)

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:04 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

M4A3. I think the "M4A4" at the end of the initial message was a typo.

ID features:

Only M4, M4A2, and M4A3 large hatch hulls built, so can't be an M4A4.

The engine door props (vertical, rectangular block about 18 inches forward of rear hull lift lug; broken off on the left, present on the right) were unique to the M4A3.

No bracket for aiming posts or ramming staffs on left rear sponson, so it was probably not a howitzer tank.

The rectangular rather than D-shaped weld fill areas on the glacis beside the differential housing bolt strip are indicative of a Fisher product. Fisher did not make howitzer tanks, so further confirmation.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

- Kurt_Laughlin
M4A3. I think the "M4A4" at the end of the initial message was a typo.

ID features:

Only M4, M4A2, and M4A3 large hatch hulls built, so can't be an M4A4.

The engine door props (vertical, rectangular block about 18 inches forward of rear hull lift lug; broken off on the left, present on the right) were unique to the M4A3.

No bracket for aiming posts or ramming staffs on left rear sponson, so it was probably not a howitzer tank.

The rectangular rather than D-shaped weld fill areas on the glacis beside the differential housing bolt strip are indicative of a Fisher product. Fisher did not make howitzer tanks, so further confirmation.

KL


Yes it's definitely an M4A3, the designation "M4A4" was another typo...

So these information confirm that the RN and SN are accurate, even if they are not complete.
I'm not 100% sure, but looking at the pictures, my wild guess is that the last number of the RN is a 1, and the SN is rather 6205x than 6206x :



that would make it RN 301150871 / SN 62059.

There are very few M4A3s in France, I wonder how this one came on that fire range...

P-O

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:09 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Excellent work, P-O!

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:26 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

well, we have to thank Kurt Laughlin and Joe DeMarco. I was only able to find the RN/SN of that tank, thanks to their researches and the information they provided to me.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

"well, we have to thank Kurt Laughlin and Joe DeMarco. I was only able to find the RN/SN of that tank, thanks to their researches and the information they provided to me."

We can always come up with various combinations of random numbers, but it take people like P-O to take the time to travel, get dirty, and get wet crawling over old tanks to make them mean something.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

This thread is a perfect example of what I love about this community.

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:45 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Yeah, that's also the reason why this forum is my favourite one. We can learn so much from each other, because all the members here know that cooperation and sharing gives 1000 times more than confrontation and keeping the information for themselves..

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:23 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

And we have been able to disagree without being disagreeable. The discussions here have been generally civil even when we have disagreed about the details

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Quick question for Kurt Laughlin (or someone else.. Rolling Eyes )

I did find the original RN painted at the back of the right side. Does it mean that it was not built by Fisher? It seems that all Fisher-built tanks have the RN at the front side.
Could this be indeed a tank built by Chrysler?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:03 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Painted on markings are always hard to define because you never know who painted them. It could be the factory, the depot, the receiving port, or a using unit.

The markings in your photo look like the ones shown at the top center here, titled "Stencil":

www.stencilease.com/Al...encils.htm

The ones I've seen in period photos from later in the war looked more like those three rows down, titled "Military". My guess is that those are not the factory markings.

A good idea, P-O, but hard to pin down.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:05 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Painted on markings are always hard to define because you never know who painted them. It could be the factory, the depot, the receiving port, or a using unit.

The markings in your photo look like the ones shown at the top center here, titled "Stencil":

www.stencilease.com/Al...encils.htm

The ones I've seen in period photos from later in the war looked more like those three rows down, titled "Military". My guess is that those are not the factory markings.

A good idea, P-O, but hard to pin down.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum