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Grizzly and Sexton Versions
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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bialy-r
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:33 am
Post subject: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

Is that true that the early Sextons and Grizzlys where based or using parts/chassis of RAMs and where describe as Mk I.

Later it was change and Sextons and Grizzly used Grizzly program and could (Sexton for sure) be describe as Mk II.

I try to explain why one Grizzlys and Sextons have 17 gear main wheels other have 13 gear wheels.

Could I get a help with that.
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:21 am
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

Hi Rafal,

The first batch of 125 Sexton are based on the Canadian Ram tank
The Ram tank itself was based on the automotive parts of the US M3 Lee
This version got the designation Sexton Mk I

The remaining Sexton vehicle's are based on the Canadian Grizzly tank
The Grizzly was based on the automotive parts of the US M4A1 Sherman
This version got the designation Sexton Mk II

There has not been an version of the Grizzly based on the Ram tank

see also Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...tillery%29

The number of teeth differ because of the different type of track used.
The Grizzly tank used CDP type track that usen an 13 teeth sprocket

see also the following site
there is also an short description of the Grizzly type tank
mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/...Canada.htm


Michel

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:58 am
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

So,

-we should find only CDP tracks on Grizzly tanks

-and we can find both CDP tracks and RAM tracks on Sextons (if I understand correctly).

P-O

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

Sexton IIs had stowage boxes & rails on the rear decks as well IIRC.

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

- the_shadock
-we should find only CDP tracks on Grizzly tanks

-and we can find both CDP tracks and RAM tracks on Sextons (if I understand correctly)


I did some research and it is an little more complicated then that

CDP stands for Canadian Dry pin and was only used and tanks that where build and used by the Canadian troops

However an lot of the Canadian Sexton's Mk II went to the Britsih army and most of these where re-fitted with the Sherman type of tracks

So to keep it simple

- CDP tracks on Grizzly tanks, of which 188 where build and all where used for training purpose

- on the Sexton we could find:
Sexton Mk I : Ram track (M3 Medium) for Canadian and British vehicle's
Sexton Mk II : CDP and Sherman track for British vehicle's
Sexton Mk II : CDP for Canadian vehicle's

To make it realy complicated, at Amersfoort is an Canadian Ram II OP tank (dummy gun) that has Sherman automotive parts
So it also uses Sherman track's



However the Canadian Ram II tank (with the real 75mm gun) uses CDP track

There is more info to be found on tracks at the Sherman Register
web.inter.nl.net/users...k_vvss.htm

And on the Canadian Ram
www.mapleleafup.org/ve...c/ram.html

I'm loosing track Laughing Laughing Laughing

Michel

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

- Michel_Krauss

To make it realy complicated, at Amersfoort is an Canadian Ram II OP tank (dummy gun) that has Sherman automotive parts
So it also uses Sherman track's

Michel
Popular%20misconception%20but%20thats%20a%20Ram%20ETT%20Lit;%20Evasive%20Target%20Tank%20-%20the%20dutch%20built%20two%20and%20the%20other%20is%20at%20Bovington

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

- JimWeb
Ram ETT Lit; Evasive Target Tank


Jim, I'm willing to believe you

however I have never heard of it and can not even find it....

What is the main difference between the two?
And where can I find some information about it??

Because, the general opinion is that it is an OP version
At least that is what the museum at Amersfoort is telling
And according Bovington the description is "Cruiser tank RAM Mk II" and that is not correct either

If it is realy an Ram ETT Lit; Evasive Target Tank
We also better tell P-O
Because it is listed as an Ram OP in the surviving Canadian & Australian list, just like the one in Bovington

I also found something else...
The one in Bovington is actualy an Dutch vehicle
On the following site, search for vehicle number "CT159418"
www.ramtank.ca/ram_mk2_5.htm

Michel

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

If some one want's to know

The Ram Kangaroo at Mill, The Netherlands
Is based on the Ram Mk I, based on the M3 Medium automotive parts

picture set from P-O Mr. Green
news.webshots.com/albu...0825TvKFmf

Michel

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

You know, I wondered about that gun on the Amersfoort vehicle when I first saw it...now I understand that it's a dummy gun.

BTW, the drive sprockets on that vehicle do not match, left and right, though both have 13 teeth. Is this usual or did they piece that together with whatever parts were available?

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:36 am
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

- Doug_Kibbey
BTW, the drive sprockets on that vehicle do not match, left and right


Thanks for telling, to be honest I never noticed that before

I do not know if this happend very often, however for this vehicle they most likely used what there was on stock

This is what I know about the Dutch armoured force's

It was founded in 1946 after the war
For equipment they recieved equipment thzt was "borrowed" from various British and Canadian vehicle depots in Holland

In total about 150 tanks of all kinds / versions
Most of them where Canadian Ram tanks, however also various type's of Sherman tanks and 57 Firefly's

In 1951 there where 141 listed in service (including 23 Firefly's operational) of which 50% was wreckage
The wreackage was used to keep the other tanks operational Shocked

This situation remained untill 1953 when they where replaced with Centurion tanks

However in 1959 there where still 131 Shermans listed, in various operational conditions

Of these 30 Sherman M4A3 (105) where handed over to the Dutch Royal Marines, most of the remaining Sherman's going to the shooting range

The last Sherman of the Royal Marines was redrawn from service in the seventhies

Michel

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:05 am
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

Sherman-type sprockets were fully interchangeable throughout the use of the vehicle, so after a period of use you could see any combination.

KL
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Hanno_Spoelstra
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:29 am
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

JimWeb wrote:
Popular misconception but thats a Ram ETT Lit; Evasive Target Tank - the dutch built two and the other is at Bovington


Jim, indeed it is a target tank, but they were NOT built by the Dutch. They were part of a batch of forty-four Rams delivered in 1947. Reportedly, four were Command/O.P. tanks, the rest were Ram IIs retrofitted with the British 75mm gun.
Ref. my web: See web.inter.nl.net/users...104/nl.htm

We now know at least two were target training tanks, today many people think they are OP's.

The one at Bovington was at one time called "GIJS" (a Dutch boys name), and was exchanged for a Grizzly.

Hanno
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Hanno_Spoelstra
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:32 am
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

If some one want's to know

The Ram Kangaroo at Mill, The Netherlands
Is based on the Ram Mk I, based on the M3 Medium automotive parts

picture set from P-O
news.webshots.com/albu...0825TvKFmf

Michel


Michel,

The Ram at Mill is a Mk.II, the fact that it is fitted with the earlier bogie style does not make it a Mk.I

The Ram Mk.I had a 2-pdr gun, the Ram Mk.II had a 6-pdr gun. Manufacturing changes are not a unique differentiator between the two marks.

Hanno
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Hanno_Spoelstra
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:42 am
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

In total about 150 tanks of all kinds / versions
Most of them where Canadian Ram tanks, however also various type's of Sherman tanks and 57 Firefly's
[snip]
Of these 30 Sherman M4A3 (105) where handed over to the Dutch Royal Marines, most of the remaining Sherman's going to the shooting range
The last Sherman of the Royal Marines was redrawn from service in the seventhies
Michel


Michel,

Not entirely correct – please see my web page at web.inter.nl.net/users...104/nl.htm

Hanno
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:48 am
Post subject: Re: Grizzly and Sexton Versions

Hi Hanno,

thanks for telling about the Kangaroo, I will change it in the list


However youre post about the Ram ETT Lit, also leaves an question

- Hanno_Spoelstra
and was exchanged for a Grizzly


Where did the Grizzly tank go Confused Confused Confused

Michel

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