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The dilemma
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:37 am
Post subject: The dilemma

As you know, with the help of members of this forum, I have assembled a PDF file called "Surviving German captured and modified Vehicles".
http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Modified_Foreign_Vehicles.pdf
It includes the Marder series and German SPGs based on foreign chassis, but it also includes Czech tanks like the LT-35, LT-38 (PzKpfw. 38(t)), TNHs, LTPs and LTL-Hs.

This is an email from Massimo Foti, from which I wonder what should be done :

"Looking at the info we now have, I wonder if it would be better to move the TNHs, LTPs and LTL-Hs into a separated PDF. They look somewhat out of place among the "german" AFVs. There is also hope we may have misseed some tanks in Iran or Perú.

To say it all, while I consider PzKpfw. 38 (t) as german tanks, I have mixed feelings about PzKpfw. 35 (t).

I see a few options:

1) Move TNHs, LTPs and LTL-H into a "Surviving czech tanks" PDF
(which doesn't exist yet)

2) Move TNHs, LTPs and LTL-H into "Surviving neutral states tanks". But
that's already very large
http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Neutral_States_Tanks.pdf

3) Move swedish tanks into a dedicated PDF, and merge the czech ones with swiss and spanish"

Please help me to take a decision !! I will consider all points of view.

P-O

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VonForhud
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:59 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

I would say make a PDF and call it "Surviving materiel used and modified by the Germans in WWII" or something similar.

Btw check out the latest info on the 105 mm auf Lorraine Schlepper in my Danish vehicles thread.

PS Keep up the good work.

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bialy-r
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:25 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

Create:

One big file with all neutral tanks from: Spain, Switzerland, Sweden and Czechoslovakia (today big files aren't a problem).

or

3 files:
-Spain, Switzerland
-Sweden
-Czechoslovakia
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bialy-r
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:48 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

Don't forget about Škoda MU-4 in Lesany

picasaweb.google.com/p...5854090962

picasaweb.google.com/t...6764289522
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:17 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

P-O, in case it helps, my original Preserved German Tanks books included vehicles built on Czech chassis, such as the Hetzer, because I considered them 'German'. However, as I have expanded my coverage of preserved tanks, just as you are doing, I have changed my mind significantly and I will be doing this differently when I create the next edition. PGT will contain just German vehicles, and there will be a Preserved Czechoslovak Tanks book that will cover the LT vz 35 ('PzKpfw 35t'), TNH/LTL ('PzKpfw 38t') plus vehicles based on their chassis (such as Hetzer).

My view now - and this is just my opinion, I'm not trying to contradict you just putting it strongly to make my point clear - is that the LTL/LTH series is absolutely not a German tank in any respect. It has nothing in common with German designs or the German tank development story and was never produced in Germany. It was just a convenient design that was being manufactured in a country that was taken over so it was handy to keep producing them. The design was called PzKpfw 38(t) to the Germans (and the 't' is highly significant), but was used by many other countries largely unchanged, and they each gave it a different name. To me now, my preference is to consider Czechoslovak development independently of German development, and so the same design can be shown to have preserved examples used by Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. under different names.

I am not actively working on PCT yet, but you can get a very early idea of what it will look like from how tanks already in the database are arranged:

Preserved Czechoslovak Tanks

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:52 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

today big files aren't a problem


No a problem in terms of bandwith, but they tend to be harder to read. Scrolling 40+ pages isn't that pleasant.

Massimo
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

The taxonomy is going to be arbitrary, no matter what...

I mostly agree with Trevor, but I still would classify the Hetzer as german,
the fact it doesn't have the (t) speaks about it. Just my personal feeling.

The Nahkampfkanone I is another weird case, it was build for sure in Switzerland, but it's not clear (at least not to me) if it was build on an existing Pz 39 chassis, or created out of existing spares. It has a swiss engine and a french gun.

@Rafal, you are right, we should not forget the MU-4

Just to make things more complicated. The Semovente M 42 da 75/18 in Rimini is another edge case, it wasn't captured, it was manufactured for the germans, including some minor changes compared to the italian vehicles (see the drive sprocket). But I consider it along the same line as PzKpfw 38

Massimo
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

- Massimo_Foti
The taxonomy is going to be arbitrary, no matter what...


that's probably what is called an "editorial line".

- Massimo_Foti
I mostly agree with Trevor, but I still would classify the Hetzer as german,
the fact it doesn't have the (t) speaks about it. Just my personal feeling.


I totally agree with you Massimo. It is the same for some of the Swedish AFVs built on a Czech chassis. The Stridsvagn m/41, Sav m/42 or PBV 301 could be considered as Czech vehicles, since the chassis is the exact copy of the LT-38 (or am I wrong?). These IMO should considered as Swedish vehicles.

P-O

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:13 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

- Massimo_Foti
I mostly agree with Trevor, but I still would classify the Hetzer as german, the fact it doesn't have the (t) speaks about it. Just my personal feeling.


the official name of the Hetzer is "Jagdpanzer 38(t)".. it still has the (t).

P-O

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:35 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

I've said my piece, so I won't go on about it much more - but myself I now see vehicles like the PBV301 or NK I as part of the Czech story, developments of a Czech chassis by foreign users. To me it's no different to the PzKpfw38(t) or Panzerwagen 39 - they are Czech vehicles operated by foreign users. Even the tanks have some modifications by the using country, it is just a larger and more obvious modification in the case of the PBV301 or NK I. To me it's the same as covering the Panzer 55/57 or Stridsvagn 101 as part of the Centurion development story.

Personally, in fact, I go further - I don't even consider the country of manufacture as crucial, only the country of design. In my system the T-34-85 is classified as a Soviet design even though it may be manufactured in Poland or Czechoslovakia, though it will have a sub-classification (something like 'Soviet / Polish'). Further, the Type 59 and Type 69 are classified in a similar way (e.g. Soviet / Chinese) since the design is the essentially the same.

I'll end here. But if it helps, I've found my philosophy and argument can actually be summarised quite succinctly in most cases: "Look at the wheels". All those vehicles on my Preserved Czech Tanks page clearly stem from two Czech designs, though they were used/modified by Hungarians, Swiss, Swedes, etc. I think most of us can look at rare or unusual vehicles, used or created by any number of different countries, and spot that superlative and distinctive CKD suspension from a mile away. To me it is core to the Czech tank development story.

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:06 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

- Massimo_Foti

I mostly agree with Trevor, but I still would classify the Hetzer as german


I have sympathy with this view - as I said, the original Preserved German Tanks has a large chapter on the Hetzer. However, I would now say it's Czech - it was designed by CKD and based on their existing highly successful chassis (I suspect it was actually designed by the same man or at least the same team, though I have been unable to confirm this) and built on the same production line in Czechoslovakia. After the war it was used by the Czech army. To me, it's use by Germany during the war - notwithstanding it incorporated a German gun - was essentially the same process as Switzerland using it after the war, they both incorporated in their armies Czech vehicles with customisations.

I was going to stop before this, but it has become an interesting argument - like the old discussions referred to in other threads. Perhaps I should quit, though, before I cause trouble, e.g. by pointing out that in my system the Grizzly is part of the Sherman story (i.e. it's in Preserved American Tanks), and the M1917 is part of the Renault FT story (i.e. it's in Preserved French Tanks). Smile

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

well, finally I decided to choose a "hybrid" option.

The original "German vehicles based on modified foreign chassis", included the LT-35 and LT-38 (PzKpfw 38 (t)) variants, the SPGs based on French chassis (Lorraine, Hotchkiss) and LT-38 chassis

It was split into :

Czech LT vz. 35 and LT vz. 38 (TNH, LTP, LTH, PzKpfw. 38 (t))

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_LT35_LT38.pdf

and German Self-propelled Guns based on modified foreign chassis : 10.5 cm leFH 18(Sf) auf Geschützwagen, 15cm sFH 13/1(Sf) auf Geschützwagen, Marder I, Panzerjäger I, Marder III, Grille, Munitionspanzer 38 (t)

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Modified_Foreign_Vehicles.pdf

P-O

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:54 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

I have sympathy with this view - as I said, the original Preserved German Tanks has a large chapter on the Hetzer. However, I would now say it's Czech - it was designed by CKD and based on their existing highly successful chassis (I suspect it was actually designed by the same man or at least the same team, though I have been unable to confirm this) and built on the same production line in Czechoslovakia.


The main designer at CKD was the engineer Alexander Surin, emigrated from Russia, where it was part of the General Wrangel's army.

A very interesting book on the subject:
www.mbi.wz.cz/nab/2/ramecnab.htm

Review here:
www.missing-lynx.com/r...bihetz.htm

More in general, all MBI's books on tanks are a great:
www.mbi.wz.cz/

Massimo
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bialy-r
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:41 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

New LTP in Peru:
modelforum.cz/viewtopi...25#p765825

video:
www.ct24.cz/domaci/816...nk-z-peru/

There is a project to bring this tank to Czech Republick
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

- bialy-r
New LTP in Peru:

There is a project to bring this tank to Czech Republick


do you think that Peru will let this tank leave and go back to CZ ?

P-O

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