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Neil: Display Info on M1A1
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:22 pm
Post subject: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

Neil

I climbed in the 'M1A1' on display in the 'OIF' gallery. Beside being totally stripped clean, I did find some interesting tidbits.

I had initially thought this was an M1 IP, but was proven wrong. She is an authentic M1E1!! Shocked




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Don
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

Had it been an M1IP I think it would have the 105mm gun (?). Does this one have the mounting hole for the CITV? It will probably be sad to see the museum after the Army takes all of their toys out. I still say the move is a bad idea. Crying or Very sad

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

The question of the 120mm mounted in a turret without the CITV 'hole' (the upper left photo shows the area where it should be,...), is an M-1 IP turret. The IP turret although normally mounting the M68, 105mm main gun, had the gun trunnions capable of mounting the 120mm. The 'IP' 105mm had a counter balance weight to compensate for the difference of the mount of the 120mm vs the 105mm. The 'IP' had been built with the idea of later upgrading to the 120mm, which was in development with the M1E1.

The confusion of IDing this tank has been an M1A1 hull (w/NBC system) and the (initially believed to be) M-1IP turret (ie no existing CITV mount 'hole').

Having compared the turret & Hull data plates, she is a SN matching M1E1 built in 1985.

BTW: The 120mm main gun has a build date of 1989, so I would imagine the gun is an out of tolerance tube that was plugged for her eventual museum 'duty'.

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Don
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kenaipo
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

When we got our new M1A1's in the 3d ACR back in 86 or so, all the data plates read M1"E"1 for some reason.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:24 am
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

- kenaipo
When we got our new M1A1's in the 3d ACR back in 86 or so, all the data plates read M1"E"1 for some reason.


Kenaipo

Welcome .

Thanks, I hadn't seen the M1E1 data plate before. I guess they were using up available 'stock'. Since I don't think they made too many true 'E1's'

In 87/88 I was in 3td AD when we transitioned from -IP's to M1A1's. Ours all had M1A1 on the data plate.

This data plate has the 'E' scratched into an 'A'. But theres no telling where or when that was done.

I had thought the SN range was a bit high. As I recall, my first M1A1 was SN L6116.


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Don
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:14 am
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

Welcome Kenaipo

Those tanks you guys drew at Bliss ended up eventually at Fort Riley. 3rd ACR was the first operational M1 120mm unit in CONUS and IIRC Army wide. I remember sparing against you guys at NTC. Although it was MILES, your range to kill (code 16 for 120mm as opposed to 12 for 105mm) forced us to change our tactics and we trained specifically for your rotations when they came up.

2nd BDE 1st ID drew your tanks after hostilities ceased during Desert Storm. They turned in their M1IP's for them in Saudi Arabia. They were sitting there since 3rd ACR drew new M1A1HC's prior to hostilities. By the time we started using them at Riley (Fall '91) they were pretty much wore out. All of them had M1E1 Data plates. The back decks did not have the access doors to the oil coolers and we had a few that did not have the CITV "Man Hole" cover on the turret. My tank, C12, had a very early breech group and it was (The Breech) painted Forest Green instead of the normal parkerized finish.

Don, as far as using the Data plate SN to date her, remember, a higher number does not equate to a newer tank all the time, especially when comparing Detroit to Lima production. 6387 is not that far off from 6116. Lima had problems meeting production and that's why Detroit was given contracts to produce tanks. They actually out produced Lima for a while.

About the later gun, could be she was equipped with one of the German made Rheinmettal guns and then switched over for commonality when released from testing. She's not a prototype made from an M1 like the model at FT Hood. Those guns had the same MRS as the 105 tubes, using the notorious strap and bolt set up.
120mm Rheinmettal gun on M1E1
Also could be the gun got destroyed or wore out. 1500 rounds go fast when assigned to a testing facility like Aberdeen or Yuma. Those early 120mm's made by Watervleit suffered badly from chrome lining loss. Only a 2408-4 would tell the story, did she come with a "Gun Card" Laughing

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:40 am
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

Joe

A "dash 4",....with a museum vehicle....!!! Laughing

I don't think so, but I'll check.

As for the chrome 'sleeves' flaking,.....I remember that well. The early 120's had a premature deadline criteria due to chrome lining loss. We had a few that 'spewed' flakes during transition gunnery and it became a constant check after each range. I seemed to remember a few in the Company were to be changed but replacement gun tube availability became an issue.

I remember driving my 'IP' into the massive storage building at Germersheim after we turned them in. One section of the building had what seemed to be hundreds of new 120 gun tubes stacked floor to ceiling,......war reserves, I guess couldn't be used..... Rolling Eyes

I do remember during CAT 89 train up, I got a new gun tube that was 'certified' as a 'zero tolerance' tube from the factory. My old tube was no where near EFC deadline, but 'THEY' wanted us to have 'all the best equipment'. (which BTW included a supposedly special 'shooters filter' on the GPS. Installed when our GPS's were individually rebuilt by the civilian 'Tech-Reps')

Ahh the good ole days Rolling Eyes
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Don
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:12 am
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

Here is a fairly recent 'Joe Pole' photo of the tank in question:



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Don
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:59 am
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

I think the M1A1 outside lacks the CITV hole also. Is that an M1E1? Any idea how many of these were made? This is new to me so I'm curious. I guess it would be pretty unusual to see the 120mm on a hull without the NBS system. I never thought to look at that when I noticed it didn't have the CITV cover plate. I've already mentioned this previously but I got to see the real "ANSWER TO THIS" at Sierra Army Depot, California in 2006. They were storing M1A1's for Anniston an were awaiting rebuild. When I left there were over 800 of them. I wish I had a camera pass! At the time the 3rd ID museum had expressed an interest in acquiring 'ANSWER TO THIS' Don't know what happened to it.

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kenaipo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

Joe D, Thanks for the history on those tanks! I've always wondered, when looking at an M1A1, if I was ever in it while at Bliss. I was a Commo dog in HHT 1/3 ACR then became Commo Chief for D Co. 1/3. We were the first Conus unit to get them, started with 2/3 ACR for some reason and we got them last. I remember the day fondly, I was sick with the flu and thought I was going to die, but I wasn't going to miss that day for anything. I was born and raised in a navy family and joined the army because of my love of tanks. Wink

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:38 am
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

Joe

They had M1A1HC's in 91? Geeez. Did time with 3/8 Cav (former 1/67 Ar) from 92-94, we didn't get '-HCs' til 93. Roll into transition then right into "A Deuce" IOTE, nonstop.


Kenaipo

I see you were in TF 1/32 AR. Y'all were 'next door' as I recall. Had a few friends over there before they switched back to 1/32 AR. They later 'redesignated' to 2/12 Cav. I did time in HHC & D Co 2/12 Cav in 98-01.

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Don
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:57 am
Post subject: Re: Neil: Display Info on M1A1

Joe

An interesting side question. In 92 we (1/67 Ar) tested the 'M1A2 Platoon'. Those first 'A-Deuce's' were factory built, I assume. So those and the later (1993) M1A2 IOTE M1A2's should have had original M1A2 data plates.

Since the 'A2' fleet were all rebuilds and not 'new' tanks, of that 1st Generation, would the data plates reflect?

I must admit not ever actually checking data plates even with my 'A2' platoon in 2/12. I always took RN/SN data off the rear, and never really had any interest in data plate info, even from the TC position, when I was practically right next to it... Rolling Eyes

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Don
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