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OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:54 am
Post subject: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

What type of grid system was in use by the US forces during the Vietnam war?

At the moment here in the NLD we use MGRS WGS-84 and before that ED-50 system. A grid taken from an ED50 map was not on the same spot on a WGS-84 map. But I can not imagine that the European Date System 50 was used in Vietnam.

I have a book named ''Vietnam above the treetops'' which has some coordinates I want to look up.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:57 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

- L.Delsing
What type of grid system was in use by the US forces during the Vietnam war?

At the moment here in the NLD we use MGRS WGS-84 and before that ED-50 system. A grid taken from an ED50 map was not on the same spot on a WGS-84 map. But I can not imagine that the European Date System 50 was used in Vietnam.

I have a book named ''Vietnam above the treetops'' which has some coordinates I want to look up.


Lesley,
The general system was the UTM (Universal Transverse Mercator), beyond that, I don't know the "name".
Digit coordinates on, say, a 1:50,000 scale map were relative to the alphabetic position on the 1:250,000 JOG map (Joint Operations Graphics). A complete coordinate set, typically at six digits for "good enough" work might be "YD" (from the section on the 250K map) "142465" (the first three being the fractions in tenths of the 50K grid square, reading right, and the next three, reading up...always "reading right, then up").

If you can pin down the area a bit, then we can use JOG maps from Jim Henthorn's site for the alpha and see if we can find 50,000 tacticals for the area. I have 50,000 tacticals for almost all of "I" Corps, and some 100,000 for a section of MRIII. I have a UTM card scalable to both.

Do you know the province, district, or nearest mappable town/city to the action?

Henthorn has period JOG maps for all of SEA online at:

www.nexus.net/~911gfx/sea-ao.html

The specific coordinates will depend on whether we have tighter scale maps for your area of interest.

If you can tell me the coordinates, I can probably put you pretty close to the area.

D.
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

Hello Doug,
This is wat I have. It is from a book about Air Forward Air Controllers in Vietnam. I wanted to look up the coordinates to see how the terrain looks in google earth.


The Phu Cats
CR 038 471 (mountain pass)
CR045 440

III corps area
XT 460788

Khe San area
XD 675648 (secundary explosion

XD 758 648 (supply complex)

XD784 642 (cave network)

Regards,
Lesley
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:51 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

Quite a list. Khe Sanh you can find easily on Google Earth. I've been up there and all that western "I" Corps terrain is rough.

Khe Sanh at 1:250,000. I will have this at 1:50,000, will take some looking as it's in a number of image files that have to be checked.

www.nexus.net/~911gfx/...8_16a.html

Look at 184 on left border and follow over to just short of 45' line.



I also have at least part of "XT" III Corps in 1:100,000, will see if those coordinates are on what have.

Will take some looking.
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C_Sherman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:24 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

- L.Delsing
What type of grid system was in use by the US forces during the Vietnam war?

At the moment here in the NLD we use MGRS WGS-84 and before that ED-50 system. A grid taken from an ED50 map was not on the same spot on a WGS-84 map. But I can not imagine that the European Date System 50 was used in Vietnam.

I have a book named ''Vietnam above the treetops'' which has some coordinates I want to look up.


I'm not sure that there was a universally recognized grid covering the Indochina area, back then. It would certainly be in the margin notes of any of the mapsheets Doug discusses, but I wouldn't be surprised of there wasn't anything more than a locally recognized grid base. That was before GPS and a good deal of the earth's surface was still subject to on-the-ground surveying.

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

- C_Sherman
- L.Delsing
What type of grid system was in use by the US forces during the Vietnam war?

At the moment here in the NLD we use MGRS WGS-84 and before that ED-50 system. A grid taken from an ED50 map was not on the same spot on a WGS-84 map. But I can not imagine that the European Date System 50 was used in Vietnam.

I have a book named ''Vietnam above the treetops'' which has some coordinates I want to look up.


I'm not sure that there was a universally recognized grid covering the Indochina area, back then. It would certainly be in the margin notes of any of the mapsheets Doug discusses, but I wouldn't be surprised of there wasn't anything more than a locally recognized grid base. That was before GPS and a good deal of the earth's surface was still subject to on-the-ground surveying.


Which is why it will take a little time. What I have are maps that have been scanned sheet-by-sheet and the margin notes for the reference system are only on the left, bottom or top borders. I have printed them out, scaled, and have roughly 2x3' maps in frames, but not all of them. I need to go through the individual scans, correlate to the margin ref data and fix positions.
"I" Corps is easy to locate points in, because of the distinctive terrain features "out west", and because I have most of it in 1:50,000. MRIII I only have the 1:250K and 1:100K maps of (and not all of MRIII, just my operational area) that were kindly scanned for me by a platoon leader (and recently retired Major General).

1:50,000 was good detail at the time and MRI takes a buttload of sheets to represent the entire area, though I can locate Khe Sanh rather quickly.

How much resolution do you really need, Lesley? Just want an idea of what the FACS were dealing with, or trying to get within 100 meters? From a book I collaborated on, I know that MRIII can be difficult to locate specific sites on as it is relatively featureless apart from Nui Ba Den (Black Virgin Mountain) some roads and rivers and has been developed beyond recognition on Google Earth (though I was able to locate one old firebase).
MRI is somewhat simpler because no peaks have been moved. Laughing

Also, be advised that Google Earth has reasonable resolution for some areas of VN, and not-so-much for others.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:28 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

Lesley,

I'm no "Google Earth" guru, but I understand you can pinpoint a location with the Degree/Minute/Second coordinates (as I see them at screen bottom when I move around)

Here is a UTM to DMS converter (or vice versa). See if your coordinates will plug in and give you a location. This might be a lot quicker for obscure locations and will "fly" you direct to your area of interest.

webdeveloper.earthweb....oords.html

Keep in mind that there was a certain, ummmm, imprecision to VN era maps.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:06 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

Khe Sanh, about 1/4 of a sheet of which I have 81 sheets representing MRI alone. See lower right portion

Detailed viewing is difficult on Photobucket, due to size reduction (which is why I cropped this one).

I believe the reference to "Khe Sanh" area is pretty broad, as those coordinates are west of here, perhaps west of Lang Vei.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:43 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

Doug

Checking out the above map, I remembered a website that has since been taken down.

The Site had radio traffic recorded during 'The Siege'. Most of it was 'Call for Fire' and adjustments on NVA Artillery positions.

It would be kinda cool to have attempted to plot the grids given 'in the clear', as a reference of sorts.

On another note:
My father did some time as an FAC & FAO while with 1st Cav in 65/66. During that tour, he was awarded the Air Medal with 2 OLCs. Not too bad for a 'Cannon Cocker' later turned 'Duck Hunter'

He recently emailed me the LZ XRay AAR that is quite an interesting read, especially when compared to the movie 'We Were Soldiers'.

Regards
Don
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

- Dontos
Doug



He recently emailed me the LZ XRay AAR that is quite an interesting read, especially when compared to the movie 'We Were Soldiers'.

Regards
Don


Does it include the walkout to LZ Albany? That would be the ugly part.
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

It has a complete analysis of the operation to include photos and maps of the whole operation. Not sure if LZ Albany is included, I'd have to see if thats included.

On another note, I found a few boxes of 173rd ABN AARs from Vietnam while searching the library today. I plan to revisit those looking for 1970-71 operations that may have included the use of Air lifted Ontos.

Regards
Don
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:37 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

That is a very nice map, in that way I can see what the terrain features are and get an idea how the terrain looks!

Thanks!!!

It is a very interesting chapter in recent history. I've been in HCM city, Bien Hoa, Phan Tiet and there was still a lot to see, old hospital markings on building in HCM city. Guard towers at Bien Hoa. The old C-130, C-123, chinooks at the airfield of HCM city. In one of the museums there were Kar 98 rifles with waffen ambt markings which were supplied by the USSR and used by the Vietnamese in the war over there.

My interest in COIN was renewed when I had to go to a certain sandbox.

Regards,
Lesley
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

- L.Delsing
That is a very nice map, in that way I can see what the terrain features are and get an idea how the terrain looks!

Thanks!!!

It is a very interesting chapter in recent history. I've been in HCM city, Bien Hoa, Phan Tiet and there was still a lot to see, old hospital markings on building in HCM city. Guard towers at Bien Hoa. The old C-130, C-123, chinooks at the airfield of HCM city. In one of the museums there were Kar 98 rifles with waffen ambt markings which were supplied by the USSR and used by the Vietnamese in the war over there.

My interest in COIN was renewed when I had to go to a certain sandbox.

Regards,
Lesley


All those aircraft revetments at TSN and BH should look familar, too.

I'll post a map of some of Tan Uyen district in MR III just NW of Saigon area, so you can see what passes for 'terrain' in that area.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:21 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

Ben Cui and Michelin Rubber plantations, The Trapezoid and Boi Loi Woods.

Flat, FLAT, FLAT.

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:22 pm
Post subject: Re: OT - Grid system in use during Vietnam war

- L.Delsing
In one of the museums there were Kar 98 rifles with waffen ambt markings which were supplied by the USSR and used by the Vietnamese in the war over there.
Regards,
Lesley


That's interesting - I remember being surprised when I read up on the large numbers of ex-Wehrmacht who served in Indo-china for the French.

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