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Surviving Panzers website
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:08 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Unless there's a "paper trail", we won't know.
Here's an interesting little run-about from the Escola de Material BĂ©lico in Rio.
obaraodatipity.blogspo...ria-2.html Nice%20family%20photo%20from%20Brazil
www.soparamilitares.hp...casos5.htm
The Belico L33?
www.soparamilitares.hp...casos5.htm
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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:20 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

A couple of post WW2 Brazilians
www.forte.jor.br/2009/...-linhares/
X1A1
XLF 40 prototype (& only one made)
Stuart running gear
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:35 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

For me the hardest part in tracking italian WW II light tanks has been to figure out how many L 3s are still in Brasil, and where they are located. Unfortunately I failed to get help from local people (tried contacting IPMS, without luck).

So I prefer to be very conservative, unless a picture is clearly labeled with date and location, I don't add the tank to the PDF. Pure speculation out of pictures available online can be quite misleading. One example I like to use. Check these two pages:

www.ferreamole.it/cont...l6_leg.htm
www.flickr.com/photos/...809164927/

Would you ever realize it's the same tank? I guess you would not. But yes, it's the same vehicle, at different times, in different locations. To me this demonstrated that the web is a great communication medium, but you can't rely just on it.

Massimo
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

- Massimo_Foti
To me this demonstrated that the web is a great communication medium, but you can't rely just on it.

Massimo


yes, that's 100% right. I spend a lot of time in comparing photos to try to know if two vehicles are not indeed the same one at different dates. Sometimes it works, when the vehicle is just simply repainted. But when the vehicle was restored and externally visually modified (addition or removal of items), it's impossible to tell if it is the same one.

P-O

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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

I agree with that whole-heartedly, like the L3s in Iraq!
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

- Pzkpfw-e
Ah, right, I thought Massimo was saying that the one I'd found photos of, was the one moved to Forte Bramafan.


Yes, exactly - that's what I meant by referring to the text:

"It was originally emplaced beside a road outside the ammunition store at Alice Castello and is believed to have been removed in the 1990s. It consisted of just the upper hull and turret fixed in concrete, with the entire lower hull, including engine compartment and running gear, removed. When seen there it retained its side door, and the mounting and inner mantlet for its machine-guns, but these are no longer fitted."


- Massimo_Foti
I really don't know. Those photos are old (there are videos on Youtube too).:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTV1NGXhu50

It's hard to tell which of the hulls was moved to Forte Bramafan. Most likely it's this one:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yaOTXZlOXc

Massimo


No, it's the other way around, which is why I put the YouTube links with the tanks they relate to, and why I highlighted the differences in 'Other Identification'. The one with the large mantlet opening went to Bramafam, the one with the small mantlet opening is still at Alice Castello.

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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:25 am
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

We should have you on TV, as a forensic tank detective!
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Thanks - sorry if I laboured the point but I spent ages examining the photos and videos and translating dozens of Italian web sites! Having done that I wrote up everything I learnt and added links to all the pictures, videos and other pages so they're available for future reference.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

- TrevorLarkum
The one with the large mantlet opening went to Bramafam, the one with the small mantlet opening is still at Alice Castello.


At least we assume/hope it's still there. There is no update on it since many years

Massimo
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

That's not my understanding - from the Vecio forum link here:

Location ID 5230: Alice Castello

it was confirmed to still be there a year ago (but let me know if I've got the translation wrong).

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

You are right Trevor! I missed that one. Good to know it's still there.

Massimo
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

hello,

trying to update the Italian medium and heavy tanks PDF file with the new tank hull from Alice Castello, there is something I don't understand :

This one is the one now at Forte Bramafam
This%20one%20seems%20to%20be%20still%20at%20Alice%20Castello%20:
However, these two photos seem to be reversed, because the MG bow is on the wrong side.

Now, there is another hull (seems to be different from the two other ones). Were there 3 different M15/42 hulls at Alice Castello?
http://www.vecio.it/forum/download/file.php?id=5762&sid=7de0980fea4e6629fce7e38ce4783efe

P-O

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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

Jagd/Panther piece, ex-Alsace scrapyard.

www.wehrmacht-awards.c...p?t=488524
Maybe too small for "Big Parts", but possibly more to come?
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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

FT turret "Maginot Line"
t0.gstatic.com/images?...KD_wP_&t=1
Another turret
t1.gstatic.com/images?...yWob5l&t=1

Associated website's defunct.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Surviving Panzers website (now incl. British tanks)

- Pzkpfw-e
Jagd/Panther piece, ex-Alsace scrapyard.

www.wehrmacht-awards.c...p?t=488524
Maybe too small for "Big Parts", but possibly more to come?


well, during a reenactment event in 2009, I was told that there was a Jagdpanther wreck in a museum in Alsace. I didn't think that the wreck was so small... lol

Pierre-Olivier

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