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silviop15 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Oct 03, 2015 Posts: 415

So what ever happened to the book idea? I would reach out to David Doyle about writing it for Ampersand.

silviop15 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Oct 03, 2015 Posts: 415

So what ever happened to the book idea? I would reach out to David Doyle about writing it for Ampersand.

Neil_Baumgardner

I came across the book "European Military Museums: A Survey of Their Philosophy, Facilities, Programs, and Management," by J Lee Westrate and commissioned by the Presidential Commission on the American Armed Forces Museum (later National Armed Forces Museum).

The following link explains much...

siarchives.si.edu/find...RU0581.htm

"The National Armed Forces Museum Advisory Board (NAFMAB) was created by Act of Congress in 1961 to plan for the establishment of a national museum to honor America's armed forces. The museum, which was to be a Smithsonian bureau, would include a study center named in honor of President Dwight D. Eisenhower. John Nicholas Brown served as Chairman of the Board, 1963-1975. Colonel John H. Magruder III served as the Director of NAFMAB from 1963 until his death in 1972. He struggled unsuccessfully to bring the museum into existence, gathering military weapons and artifacts and lobbying tirelessly to acquire various sites for the project. When the museum plan seemed doomed, he recast it as a Bicentennial Outdoor Park. He also acquired the rights to the Civil War monitor Tecumseh, which had sunk in Mobile Bay during a battle in 1864. Divers were sent to the Bay and a number of artifacts retrieved from the vessel, but the plan to recover the entire wreck failed.

None of Magruder's efforts succeeded, in part because of the American involvement in the Vietnam War and some unfortunate publicity which likened the museum to a Disneyland of war. With Magruder's death, the project was weakened further. In 1973 the Smithsonian decided to salvage at least a part of the 1961 law by bringing the study center into existence. The Eisenhower Institute for Historical Research was established in the National Museum of History and Technology (NMHT). For an administrative history of the Eisenhower Institute, see record unit 377.

James C. Hutchins was named Acting Director and then Director of the proposed armed forces museum, 1973-1975; but in effect he presided over its demise. Although the legislation was never formally repealed, Smithsonian management in the 1970s did not favor the museum. The Advisory Board was ordered to divest itself of the material that had been gathered; and in 1975 the Board recommended that all further efforts to build the museum cease. Hutchins was eventually transferred to the staff of the Eisenhower Institute."

Dontos · Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:56 am Post subject: Re: Cobra King (reposted updates)

My last visit to DC & the Smithsonian was in 1977. I remember well 'The Castle'.

I don't remember any tanks on display at all.

No military stuff that I can recall. Planes & Rockets, NO TANKS,.....oh my !! (HA HA HA)

Regards
Don

bsmart

Back in the 60s (when Rocket row was behind the Castle) there was a 'temporary' one story building that contained the Air and Space collection. I think it was bigger than the one in the previous picture. I remember it being to the right of the rockets in the above picture.

I think the 'Big Steam Engine' came when the new American History Museum was built in the early 70's. I don't ever remember seeing tanks at the Smithsonian. I wonder if the FT17 in the picture above is the one that was in the warehouse at Aberdeen. I remember being told that the Smithsonian owned that one (Not K-K-Katy, the one with the USMC globe and anchor on it)

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Cobra King (reposted updates)

- Neil_Baumgardner

Don,
Back before the Air & Space Museum various rockets/missiles, planes and yes armor was displayed at the Smithsonian Castle on the National Mall.

Neil

Those of us with, uhhhhh....gifted memories recall the "castle" of the '50's containing mainly the Wright Flyer, Spirit of St. Louis, some unidentified flappy thing (Bleriot, maybe) and a mix of big animals like the mammoth and such. I don't recall if the BIG steam engine was there or just a small one... the big one going to the nat'l history museum. It was all pretty big when i was about eight. After the "castle", the stop was the natural history museum for big mechanical stuff like the locomotive. Air and Space just opened in '82 i think so there was a lifetime between my experiences there.

Don't recall any armor around at that time, and I think I would have noticed it since my interests were already there on armored stuff.

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Cobra King (reposted updates)

Don,
Back before the Air & Space Museum various rockets/missiles, planes and yes armor was displayed at the Smithsonian Castle on the National Mall.

Here's a 1920 photo that Trevor found.

preservedtanks.com/Ima...hotoID=312

Back in the 1930s some aircraft and armored vehicles were displayed at this shed.

www.nasm.si.edu/imaged...ageID=2879

(I suspect the tank is the "First US Sample Tank;" previously on loan from the Smithsonian Institution to the Air-Ground Museum/National Museum of the U.S. Marine Corps at Quantico and then on display at the Ordnance Museum at APG).

When the (first) Air & Space Museum was built, the rockets/missiles and planes went to it. A corresponding "National Museum of Military History" never materialized, so shortly thereafter (sometime in the 1960s/1970s) the Smithsonian shed itself of its "Ordnance collection" which had apparently languished in storage somewhere in Virginia (according to an old edition of AFV News). We've discussed this before, some of the Smithsonian vehicles made their way to Fort Knox.

com-central.net/index....mithsonian
www.com-central.net/in...;start=150

Here's a picture of the old "Rocket Row," pretty certain I've seen pictures with tanks outside too

So it would be kinda funny - full circle - for historic armor to be displayed on the Mall again..

Neil

Garry_Redmon · Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: Re: Cobra King (reposted updates)

Armor for the Ages has been updated with new photos taken by Don of Cobra King's hull being primed. Go to armorfortheages.com/ for details.

Garry

Dontos · Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:25 am Post subject: Re: Cobra King (reposted updates)

- C_Sherman

- Dontos

Yes, that is the plan.

I hope to be able to be onhand to see that. It would be a personal sense of gratification to see it completed.

At least that is the goal of the current project.

Regards
Don

Hi,

So, reading between the lines of your post...is it too much to hope for that CK will be staying at Knox? Or do they (Benning) plan to snap it up once all of the restoration is complete?

C

You know the old saying,....'possession is 9/10ths of the law...'

Lets see if I can clear up a few things.....

1)Ft Knox / Patton Armor Museum got CK,...but moves to Ft Benning

2)Ft Benning Armor Museum is the 'owner' by 'property book' and will keep her,....,

3)The Army Museum has 'layed claim' to CK for the Grand Opening in ...2013(!?)...

4)oh yeah, I've even heard 'rumors' of CK being exhibited on 'The National Mall'...(Smithsonian?)

Clear as mud, ....huh?
Basically, your guess is as good as mine... Mr. Green

Regards
Don

Dontos · Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Cobra King (reposted updates)

- P_J_SMITH

I am curious about the manner in which Cobra King is supported.

Generally, supports that are not significantly wider than they are tall will be prone to rolling.

In this case, the supports are three timbers wide and three timbers high.

The supports are also composed of multiple individual timbers, which would seem to make the situation less stable.

I know that safety is a major part of training as a volunteer at the museum and would like to know what is done that is making this safer than I think.

She is resting on 6 railroad ties in the front and rear and is very stable. The 4x4s were added temporarily to remove the final 3 bogie assemblies over the past few days. The tank dollies will be put back under CK, if not already. They had to be used under the Mark 5 removal from the museum and are now back at RMP.

Safety is always a consern and although it may not appear stable, it is.

Regards
Don

Garry_Redmon · Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:41 am Post subject: Re: Cobra King (reposted updates)

The Army's original plan is for Cobra King to go to the National Army Museum. The Armor Museum director, however, wants it to go to Benning, and he will most likely ship it there until some point in the future when the Army museum is up and running and they want it shipped backed. I think it should stay at the Patton Museum because it and its crew served under Patton and because there is a historical connection there.

Doug_Kibbey

- C_Sherman

Hi,

So, reading between the lines of your post...is it too much to hope for that CK will be staying at Knox? Or do they (Benning) plan to snap it up once all of the restoration is complete?

C

Wasn't it established that it would probably going to the "Museum of the Army" or something, whatever that is? Not Benning, necessarily. I think Don posted something about this earlier.

C_Sherman · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 590

- Dontos

Yes, that is the plan.

One of the issues has been trying to figure out the stencilling under the 'First In Bastogne'. Since only the one photo seems to exist, its been a bit difficult trying to 'read' the side of CK. With the assistance of a number of sources, we think we have an idea of what is stencilled on the tank based on photographic examples of other tanks.

Its amazing how much background information has been learned from 'photo-forensics'. This way, once CK is finally completed and exhibited (where ever that might be...?!) she should be near identical to the Dec 44 photograph.

I hope to be able to be onhand to see that. It would be a personal sense of gratification to see it completed.

At least that is the goal of the current project.

Regards
Don

Hi,

So, reading between the lines of your post...is it too much to hope for that CK will be staying at Knox? Or do they (Benning) plan to snap it up once all of the restoration is complete?

C

P_J_SMITH · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: May 25, 2010 Posts: 8

I am curious about the manner in which Cobra King is supported.

Generally, supports that are not significantly wider than they are tall will be prone to rolling.

In this case, the supports are three timbers wide and three timbers high.

The supports are also composed of multiple individual timbers, which would seem to make the situation less stable.

I know that safety is a major part of training as a volunteer at the museum and would like to know what is done that is making this safer than I think.

Dontos · Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Cobra King (reposted updates)

Yes, that is the plan.

One of the issues has been trying to figure out the stencilling under the 'First In Bastogne'. Since only the one photo seems to exist, its been a bit difficult trying to 'read' the side of CK. With the assistance of a number of sources, we think we have an idea of what is stencilled on the tank based on photographic examples of other tanks.

Its amazing how much background information has been learned from 'photo-forensics'. This way, once CK is finally completed and exhibited (where ever that might be...?!) she should be near identical to the Dec 44 photograph.

I hope to be able to be onhand to see that. It would be a personal sense of gratification to see it completed.

At least that is the goal of the current project.

Regards
Don

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