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New Visit to a familiar Sherman...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:01 pm
Post subject: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Funny how you tank things forgranted just becuase they are close. The M4A3E8 in front of the Nebraska National Guard Museum in Lincoln Ne is an example. I have been on it multiple times over the years and have taken many photos, but today I found stuff I hadn't seen before. Maybe it was the new glasses?

First, the old girl does have a factory number on the right hand upper glacis. Unfortunately it's been painted over so many times that you can only really be sure of the "1" .

Gary B.
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Another detail - this tank is not an original HVSS! I had looked at the front HVSS bogie brackets and they have bolts down the sides, but the top is welded on, then I looked at the #2 and #3 brackets and guess what - welded on! Here is the right front bracket.
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:28 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

here is the left #2 bracket. Note the bolt holes are on the bracket, but the bracket is welded in place.
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:32 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Here is a shot of the welded on idler bracket on the tank's right side
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Here are the casting numbers on the top front of the turret - these are the only cast on marks on that turret
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:35 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

These are the numbers cast on the drivers hatch casting on top of the hull - these are the only casting numbers I could find on the hull.
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Gary

Neat catch.

If you have the SN off of the rear tow eyelets I'll bet 'someone' might be able to determine if the tank was a returned combat veteran, rebuilt in the late 40's/50's.

Too bad you can't get inside to see if data plate is present....

Regards
Don
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:47 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Kurt Laughlin once asked about weld scars on the rear (possibly indicating spare track brackets from a VVSS hull). I thought there were not. Today it occurred to me that the pitting on the left of the rear plate is suspiciously in two straight lines. I didn't they were weld scars, but perhaps these are the remains of ground-off weldments???
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:50 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

- Dontos
Neat catch. If you have the SN off of the rear tow eyelets I'll bet 'someone' might be able to determine if the tank was a returned combat veteran, rebuilt in the late 40's/50's. Too bad you can't get inside to see if data plate is present.... Regards
Don


I agree. The towing lugs are covered in paint, etc. I would have to get permission to scratch off the paint. Unfortuantely, the blasted ArNG gave it a GI paint job of CARC green. EGAD! I'd probably have to use a blow torch to burn that stuff off.

Gary
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:58 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

For trivia buffs, here is a shot of a mediocre job of welding up the opening for a 2" smoke mortar.
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:58 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Ballpeen hammer & Sandpaper will do the trick.....

CARC is some nasty stuff, don't torch it.....

The easier solution is to attempt to gain official (or unofficial...he he he) access. Even if the data plate is not present, the SN will be stamped in the hull 'behind' the data plate on the drivers compartment left side sponson.

Besides, there might be other data plates present to give some dated references on the main gun mount, and then theres the stamped info in the breech and gun tube....

Regards
Don
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:27 am
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Hi Folks!

- binder001

Here is a shot of the welded on idler bracket on the tank's right side


Notice the cut in the edge of the hull to the left of the mount.

Over on Missing Lynx those cuts came up. Here is what was posted over there:

If it was a clean cut, the hull was build at the factory for the E8 system.
If the cut was done with a cutting torch, then is was a post factory conversion.

The cut provides clearance to remove the inter road wheels without removing the bogie.

Not an origanal E8?

I am confuzed by the Sherman once again!
Sgt, Scouts out!

Don't know where the photo went, but it is the third one down from the top.

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:18 pm
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

- Roy_A_Lingle


Notice the cut in the edge of the hull to the left of the mount.

Over on Missing Lynx those cuts came up. Here is what was posted over there:

If it was a clean cut, the hull was build at the factory for the E8 system.
If the cut was done with a cutting torch, then is was a post factory conversion.

The cut provides clearance to remove the inter road wheels without removing the bogie.

Not an origanal E8?

I am confuzed by the Sherman once again!
Sgt, Scouts out!

Don't know where the photo went, but it is the third one down from the top.


That rule of thumb is mostly correct, but not completely. There are converted tanks with clean hull cuts. The definitive feature is how the bogies, idler brackets, and return roller brackets were attached. If they use plug welds and have a weld all around their perimeter, it is a VVSS tank converted to HVSS. If the brackets use bolts in all locations, the tank was built as HVSS.

KL
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:44 am
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

So this tank, which I assumed for years to be "hum drum" was in fact a VVSS M4A3 that was depot converted to HVSS? Funny how you can still learn new things about "old friends".

Does the presence of a factory number on the glacis give a hint as to the factory?

Gary
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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: New Visit to a familiar Sherman...

Hi Gary:

Yup, ex-VVSS. The scars on the rear plate are where the VVSS track block holders were attached:

the.shadock.free.fr/Ta...age37.html

Without the serial though, you can't tell if it originally was a 75mm, 76mm, or 105mm tank.

I can't see exactly where than number comes from but most likely not. On large hatch M4A3s there are two key features that tell the factory:

1. Notch by differential bolt strip (shape of the weld filler)

On Fisher tanks it is rectangular, indicating the bolt strip was finish machined using a pain milling cutter:

the.shadock.free.fr/Ta...age23.html

Chrysler apparently used an end mill, leaving a D-shaped notch and filler:

the.shadock.free.fr/Ta...age20.html

2. Hull side stampings

Fisher put their build or sequence numbers on the left front corner:

the.shadock.free.fr/Ta...age44.html

While Chrysler put theirs on the right side edge of the glacis plate itself, as seen on page 11 of my guide:

www.scribd.com/doc/194...-Locations

If you are willing to revisit some more of your "old friends", my offer of a paying for a tank of gas to help out still holds!

KL


Last edited by Kurt_Laughlin on Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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