±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 313
Total: 313
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Photo Gallery
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Photo Gallery
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Photo Gallery
21: Home
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Photo Gallery
25: Home
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Photo Gallery
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Photo Gallery
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Member Screenshots
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Member Screenshots
51: Community Forums
52: News Archive
53: Photo Gallery
54: Photo Gallery
55: Photo Gallery
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Photo Gallery
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Photo Gallery
62: Downloads
63: Photo Gallery
64: Photo Gallery
65: Photo Gallery
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Photo Gallery
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Downloads
76: Home
77: Photo Gallery
78: Photo Gallery
79: Photo Gallery
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Member Screenshots
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: News Archive
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Your Account
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Photo Gallery
114: Community Forums
115: News Archive
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Photo Gallery
119: Community Forums
120: Your Account
121: Photo Gallery
122: Photo Gallery
123: Photo Gallery
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Member Screenshots
128: Photo Gallery
129: Home
130: Home
131: News Archive
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: News
135: Photo Gallery
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: News
139: LinkToUs
140: Photo Gallery
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Photo Gallery
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Your Account
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Photo Gallery
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Photo Gallery
173: Home
174: Photo Gallery
175: Photo Gallery
176: Photo Gallery
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Your Account
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Photo Gallery
191: News Archive
192: Photo Gallery
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Photo Gallery
197: Search
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: News
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Downloads
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Photo Gallery
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Home
216: Community Forums
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Photo Gallery
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Photo Gallery
228: Your Account
229: Photo Gallery
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Downloads
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: Photo Gallery
236: Photo Gallery
237: Community Forums
238: Home
239: Photo Gallery
240: Community Forums
241: News Archive
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Your Account
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: CPGlang
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: News Archive
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Photo Gallery
266: Your Account
267: Photo Gallery
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Home
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Community Forums
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Photo Gallery
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Your Account
286: Photo Gallery
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: Community Forums
291: Home
292: Community Forums
293: News
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Member Screenshots
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: CPGlang
302: Community Forums
303: Photo Gallery
304: Photo Gallery
305: Community Forums
306: Photo Gallery
307: Community Forums
308: Your Account
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: News Archive

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:18 pm
Post subject: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

Hi Guys-
Just when you thought I could not think of another railway question, yet another comes to my pointy little noodle! I've been studying all the photos I can find of freight on flatcars and, I cannot see what holds said freight in place. If the freight is vehicles, I can see blocks/chocks placed front and back of the tires, what is holding them (block/chocks) in place? On some, not all, flat bed trucks, I can see tie down rings and places to drop a peg to stop a block from slipping. I dont see anything like this on any railway flatcars. On the sides of the Dragon flatcars are rings which, obviously, are meant to serve as tie down points for frieght although, these would not help to hold wheel blocks/chocks. I mean to say, the railway flatbed is featureless so, if you put a block in front of a vehicle's wheel, what is there (on the flatbed) to keep the block from sliding?
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/) Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

- geoffsteer
Hi Guys-
Just when you thought I could not think of another railway question, yet another comes to my pointy little noodle! I've been studying all the photos I can find of freight on flatcars and, I cannot see what holds said freight in place. If the freight is vehicles, I can see blocks/chocks placed front and back of the tires, what is holding them (block/chocks) in place? On some, not all, flat bed trucks, I can see tie down rings and places to drop a peg to stop a block from slipping. I dont see anything like this on any railway flatcars. On the sides of the Dragon flatcars are rings which, obviously, are meant to serve as tie down points for frieght although, these would not help to hold wheel blocks/chocks. I mean to say, the railway flatbed is featureless so, if you put a block in front of a vehicle's wheel, what is there (on the flatbed) to keep the block from sliding?
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/) roll
It probably varies from country to country based on local custom. In The US on some older flat cars they would nail the blocks into the wood deck

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

They are could be nailed into the flatcar, or the weight of the vehicle applies pressure. Chains can be applied to the tow hooks or around axles and then ratched down, to keep the vehicle from shifting.

HTH
Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:35 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

Depends on who you are talking about.

In the US, railroad rules require chains fore and aft. Depending on the type of flatcar and what you are loading on it (wheel or track, etc.), it may also require chocks and bracing. The chocks and bracing are normally nailed to the car decking using long spikes. The rules are fairly strict, and we always wondered if the railcars were actually going to be upside down at some point.

In Europe, they don't always require chains to secure the load. This may have something to do with the generally smoother roadbeds on Euro railways, and may also reflect the generally shorter distances for rail movements in Europe. I believe that the distance of the move can come into play; i.e., shorter moves require less extensive tiedown or blocking. Perhaps some of the folks here have experience with military rail movements in Europe and can comment further.

I recall reading that German armor was only secured by chocks fore and aft, during WWII. I'm less sure, but I believe that still holds true.

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:39 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?Thanks Guys.

Hi Don & Bob-
Nailed down? I must admit, I never thought of that, probably to simple and obvious. On the one hand, nailing down the blocks would cause wear and tear on the flatbed's wooden floor. On the other hand, it would not cause sufficient wear and tear to force the replacement of the wooden floor on anything like a frequent amount of occasions. Actually, being able to nail down blocks is most likely the reason for the flatbed having a wooden floor in the first place.
Thanks for your help, Don and Bob-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
Back to top
View user's profile
L.Delsing
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

For Leopards and YPR-765's you need a total of 8 chocks / blocks. Two in front of the track, two at the back against the track and and then 4 chocks / blocks to prevent sideways sliding. These will be placed at the inside of the track under the first and last roadwheels. So it can not move forwards, backwards or sidewards.

These last mentioned chocks / blocks are hanging at the back of the turret of the Leopard 2A5/A6.

Correct placement of these things is checked by railroadpersonnel and if OK nothing more is required. Of course the parking brake of the vehicle must be engaged.

Regards,
Lesley
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:19 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

- C_Sherman
Depends on who you are talking about.

In the US, railroad rules require chains fore and aft. Depending on the type of flatcar and what you are loading on it (wheel or track, etc.), it may also require chocks and bracing. The chocks and bracing are normally nailed to the car decking using long spikes. The rules are fairly strict, and we always wondered if the railcars were actually going to be upside down at some point.

In Europe, they don't always require chains to secure the load. This may have something to do with the generally smoother roadbeds on Euro railways, and may also reflect the generally shorter distances for rail movements in Europe. I believe that the distance of the move can come into play; i.e., shorter moves require less extensive tiedown or blocking. Perhaps some of the folks here have experience with military rail movements in Europe and can comment further.

I recall reading that German armor was only secured by chocks fore and aft, during WWII. I'm less sure, but I believe that still holds true.

C


Are flatcars loaded with vehicles ever 'humped'? ( Do they do that in Europe at all?) I know some types of cars are labeled 'DO NOT HUMP' and I always figured it was because of the shock loads involved in the process.

For those that don't know Hump yards are freight classification yards that are used to make up and break down trains. It centers around a large 'hill'. The train is pushed up the back side of the hill (or hump) by a switching locomotive. At the top each car is disconnected in turn and allowed to drift down the front slope where the tower personnel watch it and throw various switches routing the car into the stub track where they want it. I've seen a hump yard that had several cars all rolling down the slope at the same time with the appropriate switch being thrown just before the car gets to the point of the switch and each car slamming into the cars already on the stub when it reached the end of the run. There are brake plates along the rails that can be used to control the cars speed as it rolls down the slope but I understand that there is a reluctance to use them any more than absolutely neccesary since it slows the process of building trains.

If the cars have to be 'humpable' that could be another reason the more extensive chaining is required in the U.S.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

LOL....okay .

Its my understanding that it is due to the poorer condition of the US rail system.

European Rail system is far better maintained.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:31 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

Here is a photo I took in 1993 at Ft Hood. We were railloading to Ft Bliss and Operation Roving Sands.

This is a typical tie-down scenario in the States.



Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:51 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

- bsmart

Are flatcars loaded with vehicles ever 'humped'? ( Do they do that in Europe at all?) I know some types of cars are labeled 'DO NOT HUMP' and I always figured it was because of the shock loads involved in the process.


Hi all,

Bob, military vehicles are nearly always carried as 'unit trains'* rather than a collection of individual cars. This is because most equipment moves more than one or two vehicles/railcars, but rather a full unit's worth of vehicles. So 'humping' is unlikely, since 'unit trains' usuually have a dedicated locomotive and the cars are rarely uncoupled from each other.

According to the schools and manuals, the chains, etc. are required in the US because the US rail system tolerates a greater amount of variation in roadbeds...in other words, our roads are bumpier. There are a variety of reasons for this, not just "lower quality".

The rules differ for military/DOD steel deck flatcars (chains only) and standard wood deck cars (chains and chocks). The DOD flatcars are designed to use the chains in the most efficient way, and are often the only way to move tanks and BFVs. What Dontos shows below are DOD steel deck flats, so no blocking/bracing is needed.

The rules are very tight, because of past experience and previous problems. For example, most people don't know that a rubber tire sidewall rubbing against a wood bracing block can actually start a fire...but it has, and it can. So there are requirements for separating the two (tarpaper, believe it or not). I've seen pictures of what happens when a vehicle or part of a vehicle (turret, crane, cargo, etc.) comes adrift during rail transport, and it ain't pretty. If you are lucky, no one gets kilt...and the best result is just extensive damage to unit property. Unlucky? Well, that can get really ugly.

C

* A 'unit train' is a railroad term for a train that has only one or two types of cars, that travel as a unit. In the western US, you can often see unit trains made up of 50-70 hopper cars, that carry coal from mines to power plants. There are other types, too.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:55 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

I love this board....I'm learning a ton of stuff about trains here that I never even thought of!

...just sayin'.....

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:23 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

"According to the schools and manuals, the chains, etc. are required in the US because the US rail system tolerates a greater amount of variation in roadbeds...in other words, our roads are bumpier. There are a variety of reasons for this, not just "lower quality"."

Jeff Button - Make sure you pay attention in class. You are going to be our designated transportation expert in the future.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

Hi Folks!

As best I can remember, every rail movement I was part of, the requiered number of flat cars would be placed against a ramp at the end of the rail line and each vehicle would drive from the ramp crossed all the flat cars until it reached the one it would be traveling on.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:17 am
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

[quote="C_Sherman"][quote="bsmart"]
I've seen pictures of what happens when a vehicle or part of a vehicle (turret, crane, cargo, etc.) comes adrift during rail transport, and it ain't pretty. If you are lucky, no one gets kilt...and the best result is just extensive damage to unit property. Unlucky? Well, that can get really ugly.

Back in the late 1960s I remember TV footage of a "problem" on the old Rock Island Railroad thru Lincoln, NE. The showed what happened when the barrel of an "Army tank" swung free and was perpendicular to the tracks. In fact the "tank" was an M109 SP 155 and that great big tube was knocking over signs and signals all thru the town until someone could get the train to stop. The RR had to reset most of their crossing signs and signals on that side of the right-of-way!
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:46 am
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

In the 80's, in Germany, a situation occurred when the unsecured gun tube of a US M60 clipped a pole and then spinning wildly, slammed into a tunnel embankment causing the tank to dislodge and then the train derailed.

Not sure of exactly when, but 'rumor' had it ocurring in the Frankfurt (South) rail tunnel as the train headed to Graffenwohr.

Having been in 3rd Armored Div, I rode the train on many occassions and everytime we went thru that particular tunnel there was mere inches clearence, between the tanks and the tunnel.

On one occassion, we were held on a side rail near the Frankfurt Haupt Bahn Hof, because it was believed (by parties unknown) that our M1A1's would hit the tunnel walls. 9 hour delay, seemed a lifetime.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum