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The Netherlands AFV Registers
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:14 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

Hi folks,

question about the M109 at Overloon

Who know's what the correct description is?
The vehicle is former Dutch army so most likely it will be an little more then just M109 SPH

I found something about Dutch M109 leaving the following options: M109 - M109A2 - M109A3 - M109A2/90



Michel

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:02 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

Hi folks,

another question about vehicle's at the Overloon museum

Who know's what happend to the T17E1 Staghound that has been there?
I could find an picture of it taken in 2005
It appears (from the outside) to be an rather complete vehicle, just missing the gun barrel
news.webshots.com/phot...4502Qkhhed

This is an different vehicle then the one that is still there
news.webshots.com/phot...2038jbQGDA

Michel

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:17 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

The second one is an old fortification from the Issellijn.

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:52 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

Thanks Jim, I known

and actually is it called the IJssellinie Wink

The name comes from the following:
IJssel : is an river
linie : military phrase that can be translated to defence line

So in English: IJssel defence line

Michel

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:37 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

- Michel_Krauss
Thanks Jim, I known


Ah but did all the others on here?

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:44 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

Ah but did all the others on here?


I guess not Wink

However there is more.
The IJssellinie has been build between 1951 and 1954 to protect Holland against an Russian invasion

The bleu line is the actual defence line
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/...IJssel.PNG

The line consisted of various strongpoints that have been made from obselete tanks
Moslty US Sherman, Canadian Ram tanks and British T17 Staghound armored cars

All moving parts that where no part of the turret where removed
The remaining hull and turret was used to make an concrete bunker that could operate stand-alone

In case of an Russian attack the grounds in front of the defence line would be flooded, estimated 410.000 people would have to be evactuated

The line became obselete in 1964 after the creation of the German Bundeswehr.

Michel

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

The Sherman "Cookie", who used to be in the Overloon Museum is in Italy now:
preservedtanks.com/Loc...0&Select=4

Massimo
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:27 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

Hi Massimo,

the fact that "Cookie" went to Italy is well known in the inner circle of AFV enthusiasts in Holland Sad

And the opinions about that fact where not all positive
In an matter of fact, I did not hear any positive reaction about it

The biggest argument against it was, that Cookie was not used in Italy
Another argument against it was that Sherman's are not an very rare type of tank

The society that bought Cookie, just wanted an 75mm Sherman for the monument

I think that there are enough other 75mm Shermans hanging around that no one would have missed

These things happen, unfortunately Sad Sad Sad

Michel

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:32 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

And the opinions about that fact where not all positive
In an matter of fact, I did not hear any positive reaction about it


I totally agree.

On top of the arguments you listed, the tank is now going to be exposed to weather and vandalism Sad

At least the Overloon Museum got some good money out of it... Unlike Morges Museum with its G-13 Rolling Eyes

Massimo
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:14 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

At least the Overloon Museum got some good money out of it...


It is even worse then that

Because of the post it got all stirred up again
So I did some research on it

When the British army was still based in Germany (British army of the Rhine) some of it's military personel offered to restore an part of the collection of Overloon for free
(That is before vehicle's of other museum's moved there)

Among them was Cookie

Cookie was an tank of the US 7th Armoured division and was abandoned during the battle of Overloon
After the war it remained on the battle and was part of the original museum.

There are more arguments against the selling, apart that Cookie was not an Canadian but an US Sherman
- Cookie is an type of Sherman that the Canadians did not use during the Italy campaign
The Canadians used M4A4 Sherman's in Italy
- it used to be: is an rare version, in the original colors, on the original battle field

Cookie still at home in Overloon Sad Sad
www.nahverteidigungswa.../M4-13.htm

Michel

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:18 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

Cookie is an type of Sherman that the Canadians did not use during the Italy campaign

I know. I was aware of that.
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:52 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

- Michel_Krauss

Cookie still at home in Overloon :( :(
www.nahverteidigungswa.../M4-13.htm

Michel


Michel - that link goes to the 'other' M4 that was at Overloon, not Cookie. Trying it myself I think there is a problem with getting correct links from that site, so I've done this one by hand for Cookie:

www.nahverteidigungswa.../M4-14.htm


Anyway, I've added my old photos of Cookie from 1982, and I'll love to post some between 1982 and 2008 so if you, or anyone else, has more recent ones please get in touch to give a complete record of this unique vehicle:

Cookie

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:01 am
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

Hi Trevor

you're right, the link goes to the wrong one
It is going to "After Hitler" that is stored inside the museum now

I tried it before posting it, and it went to Cookie... Confused Confused
(the internet leads in misterious ways)

Concerning picture's of Cookie, can not help you there
I do not any picture's if it, it was sold to Italy approx october 2006 or even earlier

Michel

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MarcoH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:47 pm
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

Hello Michel and Massimo,

In a Dutch photo-database I found this photo from Cookie.
The photo is dated 1946.

With best regards,

Marco Hogenkamp
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 pm
Post subject: Re: The Netherlands AFV Registers

- Michel_Krauss

Concerning picture's of Cookie, can not help you there
I do not any picture's if it, it was sold to Italy approx october 2006 or even earlier

Michel


Ok, thanks anyway.


- MarcoH
Hello Michel and Massimo,

In a Dutch photo-database I found this photo from Cookie.
The photo is dated 1946.

With best regards,

Marco Hogenkamp


Marco - that's a great picture! However, do you know what the copyright situation is with it? I'm very careful with copyright on anything I publish online or in books, but I would love to use it.

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