±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 661
Total: 661
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Your Account
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Photo Gallery
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Photo Gallery
10: Home
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Your Account
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Downloads
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Downloads
25: Community Forums
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Your Account
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Downloads
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Photo Gallery
45: Photo Gallery
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: CPGlang
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Photo Gallery
62: Community Forums
63: Member Screenshots
64: Community Forums
65: Your Account
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Photo Gallery
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Photo Gallery
74: Home
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Downloads
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Your Account
88: Downloads
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Home
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Downloads
115: Community Forums
116: News Archive
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Home
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Downloads
128: CPGlang
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: CPGlang
138: Community Forums
139: LinkToUs
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Downloads
151: Community Forums
152: Photo Gallery
153: Home
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Photo Gallery
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Statistics
176: Home
177: CPGlang
178: News
179: Community Forums
180: Home
181: Photo Gallery
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Home
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Photo Gallery
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Home
195: Community Forums
196: Member Screenshots
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: News Archive
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Home
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: Community Forums
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Home
228: Community Forums
229: Photo Gallery
230: Photo Gallery
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Community Forums
236: CPGlang
237: Photo Gallery
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Photo Gallery
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Member Screenshots
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: News Archive
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Home
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: News Archive
270: Photo Gallery
271: Downloads
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Photo Gallery
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Downloads
278: Photo Gallery
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Member Screenshots
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Member Screenshots
287: Downloads
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Photo Gallery
292: Home
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Supporters
298: Community Forums
299: Member Screenshots
300: Photo Gallery
301: Downloads
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Photo Gallery
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Home
310: Photo Gallery
311: Home
312: Downloads
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Statistics
319: Community Forums
320: Downloads
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Your Account
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Your Account
329: Community Forums
330: Home
331: Photo Gallery
332: Home
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Downloads
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Photo Gallery
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Home
347: Photo Gallery
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Home
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Photo Gallery
357: News
358: Your Account
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: CPGlang
362: Community Forums
363: Photo Gallery
364: Home
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: CPGlang
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: CPGlang
373: Downloads
374: Community Forums
375: Home
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Photo Gallery
381: Photo Gallery
382: Member Screenshots
383: Photo Gallery
384: Statistics
385: Home
386: Downloads
387: News Archive
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: Home
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Photo Gallery
402: Photo Gallery
403: Photo Gallery
404: Community Forums
405: Downloads
406: Home
407: Photo Gallery
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Photo Gallery
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Your Account
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Your Account
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Photo Gallery
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Photo Gallery
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Downloads
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Photo Gallery
439: Home
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Home
445: Photo Gallery
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Downloads
454: Community Forums
455: News
456: CPGlang
457: News
458: Community Forums
459: Member Screenshots
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Home
464: Home
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Community Forums
469: Downloads
470: Home
471: Home
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Downloads
477: Downloads
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Home
484: Photo Gallery
485: Home
486: Community Forums
487: Home
488: Home
489: Home
490: Photo Gallery
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Photo Gallery
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Photo Gallery
498: Your Account
499: Your Account
500: Photo Gallery
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Photo Gallery
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Downloads
513: Home
514: Home
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Search
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Photo Gallery
526: Home
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Statistics
530: Community Forums
531: Photo Gallery
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Home
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Photo Gallery
544: Downloads
545: Photo Gallery
546: Community Forums
547: News
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: News Archive
551: Community Forums
552: Home
553: Member Screenshots
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Photo Gallery
561: Community Forums
562: Downloads
563: Community Forums
564: Your Account
565: Home
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Downloads
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: CPGlang
573: Downloads
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Member Screenshots
579: Community Forums
580: CPGlang
581: Photo Gallery
582: Community Forums
583: Photo Gallery
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Home
587: Downloads
588: Downloads
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: CPGlang
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Photo Gallery
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Photo Gallery
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Home
607: Community Forums
608: Photo Gallery
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Photo Gallery
620: Downloads
621: Community Forums
622: Photo Gallery
623: Home
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: CPGlang
627: Home
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: CPGlang
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Photo Gallery
638: Photo Gallery
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Home
643: Community Forums
644: Photo Gallery
645: Photo Gallery
646: Downloads
647: Community Forums
648: Photo Gallery
649: Photo Gallery
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: CPGlang
657: Photo Gallery
658: Photo Gallery
659: Community Forums
660: News Archive
661: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M60 detail for exacting model builders
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:38 pm
Post subject: M60 detail for exacting model builders

Sharing this tidbit to demonstrate how changes get made and go unnoticed after time.

Original M19 cupola for the M60 was discovered to have some flaws with it's protection so they redesigned it. Very subtle and the change came about with the introduction of the M60A1 turret. Noticed this when looking at images of M60A1 and M60A3 tanks which had older M60 cupolas. They were easily ID'd by the mounting pad welded on the L/S above the second vision block for the .50 Cal. The Part #'s cast were different from the later cupolas. Welding a pad wouldn't change that so I delved into it further.

Discovered the new splash guards were the change.

M19 cupola on M60

M19 cupola on M60A3

M19 cupola L/S on M60

M19 cupola on M60A1

You can see the obvious changes designed to prevent bullet splash entering the cupola. Being primarily an Anti-Aircraft weapon the guards covered areas exposed when level and elevated. Someone somewhere discovered this weakness and incorporated the design change, but I haven't found any reference officially doing this anywhere. Most likely in some dusty archive somewhere lost. Not something that can be done on a whim and had to have official blessing. The Part #'s that actually changed were the cupola, #10873386, and the cover assembly, #0873140. Later castings were #10911781 and #0915610 respectively. When you look them up in the parts manual they are listed differently for the M60 from the later A1/A3 and M728 CEV, so they were not officially interchangeable. M60 cupolas installed on later tanks had to be modified.

M19 cupola modified for use on M60A1

They welded on the new splash guards to maintain the same standard throughout the fleet. Had to be a Depot operation. Don't just see these on rebuilt/converted A1's to A3's either, seen them on New Detroit A1's and A3's too. Guess when we sent all those M60's to Israel they reused the cupolas for tank production here. Israel did not use them on their tanks and technically being paid for with US foreign aid they were US property to be returned when no longer needed. Saved the Taxpayers a lot of money reusing them, having to reduce the order for castings on new tanks. Just a theory but does make sense and explains how those older cupolas got on later tanks. Also, not visible externally but the hatch part # changed too, since the later versions had a different type locking mechanism which required a larger mounting boss for the handle.

Now that's trivia guys

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:17 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

Hi, Joe!

Looking at that last pic carefully, I got myself to wondering why the cupola wasn't built with an armored, hinged flap that lifted forward from the hatch position above the gun and feed tray to facilitate servicing of the weapon. The TC would still be mostly behind armor when open and wouldn't have been much heavier than a loader's hatch and would have prevented untold amounts of cussin'.

M48 and M60 family hand-cranked cupolas were some the most poorly conceived items ever inflicted on a tank. Cost a bundle and near universally hated.

D.

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Jstar
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 23, 2012
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:17 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

The cradle access door opened in the manner you described, to allow access to the gun cover assembly, providing a measure of protection....were you suggesting something bigger?

And, yeah, that cupola was an absolute waste of money.
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:40 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

- Jstar
The cradle access door opened in the manner you described, to allow access to the gun cover assembly, providing a measure of protection....were you suggesting something bigger?

And, yeah, that cupola was an absolute waste of money.


Yes, absolutely, much bigger. I don't think they had gas strut technology then like what's on my car now, but that would have been nice, too. I have time on all iterations of M60 (except the A3, which was after my time) and two versions of M48. Access was not what it needed to be if it was ever to be used under the pressures of combat. It all aimed pretty precisely out on the range, but reloading or any other service was not going to be wieldy if there was lead in the air other than your own. And it was still a pain even in controlled conditions.

I'm of the opinion that if one is going to use a cupola option, it must be powered and easy to service, even at the cost of greater size and complexity. Otherwise, you're better off with a pintle mounted weapon and a gunshield.*


*and that goes for the APC's as well. Trying to spin a protected pintle mounted heavy MG with shields manually is asking a lot (BTDT), especially out there in the real world where the ground is rarely level and you might have to face threats from more than one direction, or maneuver your vehicle such that your have to rotate a heavy cupola with your feet hooked in what amounted to a sturdy towel rack (which was only useful for 180 degrees of travel or less).

Moderndevelopments on these matters seems to have caught up with what should have been fairly evident by the mid-'60's.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:50 am
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

- Joe_D
The Part #'s that actually changed were the cupola, #10873386, and the cover assembly, #0873140. Later castings were #10911781 and #0915610 respectively.


Joe, the covers were actually 10873140 and 10915610, to be consistent with the drawing number sequences used on everything else. You can see the full number in the picture of the cover with the cast-in lip.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:46 am
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

Cool beans. Interesting detail info, that I probably never would have noticed! Those parts are pretty much always completely covered, so unless you are prowling around relics with their canvas covers shredded you'll never notice there is a difference.

IIRC, the M60-series came about during some really secret-squirrel times of the Cold War, so I expect that any discussion of the design changes was immediately classified. It's probably declassified now, but Lord only knows what vault or file archive the documents are buried in.

Having never developed the double-jointed wrist and third elbow to be able to effectively reload the M85 without exiting the cupola, and the coordination to traverse and elevate the thing anywhere but on stationary, flat range firing points, I agree that the M19 cupola sucked. The MG itself sucked too.

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

Kurt,

Right you are, I don't know how I left off the 1 on both. I culled out the pictures to post but I have some good shots of both style covers with the part numbers in plain sight. Some of those covers it's located under the canvas but others it's cast in near the bottom upside down, just depends who the foundry was.

Dealt with the M19 cupola and M85 for 7 years off and on and yeah, it was not the easiest to work with but generally I had no problems with either for the most part. Always kept a large screwdriver handy to feed the rounds up through the chute and being tall made it easier to reach over the sight housing to open the covers and load. One of the later and better ideas that came out with the A3 was the last round over ride function. Kept you from completely expending all your ammo so you could link up another belt without having to reload the weapon. The biggest issue I had with that cupola was the poor visibility, since all the vision blocks were really tiny and you didn't have any forward. When I first got on the M1 I loved the new periscopes and especially the forward one. Hated the weapon station though. Really poor design and under utilized the M2 capabilities. Broke easy too with that brass gear and pinion design. And don't get me started on the stupid combination elevation wheel and trigger. At least on the M1A1 they finally put an electric solenoid on it. Guess they gave up with the M1A2 and went with a pseudo flex mount.

Doug, Amen on the heavy protected pintle mount being a pain. In Iraq we had M1114 Humvees with the armored cupola and gun shield, Manual traverse handle that was not up to the task after we started putting additional armored front windshields on the sides for protection. Got even worse when they made those "Pope Mobiles" and put them all around the gunner. Hated those and when we got a loaner the first thing I did was remove them and install them on the sides. Right before I left the team I was with got the "Rock Island" turrets installed along with other armor upgrades. Electric traverse with a joystick control box that was magnetically attached, so the gunner could place it where it was most comfortable. Even came with nice big rear view mirrors. Used the same motor drive as those fancy electric wheel chairs.

The best I worked with, and mind you this was with the OPFOR in Irwin, was the M551 cupola. Standard flex mount but the cupola was electric traversed. Had a cable that ran out side to connect remote control. Never could get the original ones but some were rigged up a DPDT toggle switch to make it work. Some really "Smart Guy" got an old CVC cord and rigged up some thumb triggers that attached to the back plate hand grips. Squeeze left, traverse left, squeeze right, traverse right.

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:39 am
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

- Joe_D
Kurt,

Right you are, I don't know how I left off the 1 on both. I culled out the pictures to post but I have some good shots of both style covers with the part numbers in plain sight. Some of those covers it's located under the canvas but others it's cast in near the bottom upside down, just depends who the foundry was.

Dealt with the M19 cupola and M85 for 7 years off and on and yeah, it was not the easiest to work with but generally I had no problems with either for the most part. Always kept a large screwdriver handy to feed the rounds up through the chute and being tall made it easier to reach over the sight housing to open the covers and load. One of the later and better ideas that came out with the A3 was the last round over ride function. Kept you from completely expending all your ammo so you could link up another belt without having to reload the weapon. The biggest issue I had with that cupola was the poor visibility, since all the vision blocks were really tiny and you didn't have any forward. When I first got on the M1 I loved the new periscopes and especially the forward one. Hated the weapon station though. Really poor design and under utilized the M2 capabilities. Broke easy too with that brass gear and pinion design. And don't get me started on the stupid combination elevation wheel and trigger. At least on the M1A1 they finally put an electric solenoid on it. Guess they gave up with the M1A2 and went with a pseudo flex mount.

Doug, Amen on the heavy protected pintle mount being a pain. In Iraq we had M1114 Humvees with the armored cupola and gun shield, Manual traverse handle that was not up to the task after we started putting additional armored front windshields on the sides for protection. Got even worse when they made those "Pope Mobiles" and put them all around the gunner. Hated those and when we got a loaner the first thing I did was remove them and install them on the sides. Right before I left the team I was with got the "Rock Island" turrets installed along with other armor upgrades. Electric traverse with a joystick control box that was magnetically attached, so the gunner could place it where it was most comfortable. Even came with nice big rear view mirrors. Used the same motor drive as those fancy electric wheel chairs.

The best I worked with, and mind you this was with the OPFOR in Irwin, was the M551 cupola. Standard flex mount but the cupola was electric traversed. Had a cable that ran out side to connect remote control. Never could get the original ones but some were rigged up a DPDT toggle switch to make it work. Some really "Smart Guy" got an old CVC cord and rigged up some thumb triggers that attached to the back plate hand grips. Squeeze left, traverse left, squeeze right, traverse right.


Most of our Sheridans in VN had the TC's turret override control handle relocated outside of the turret and into the "teacup" where he could just aim and fire everything from that position. The hydraulics were long enough so you just needed to fabricate a bracket to which to mount the turret control handle As there was no "gunner" in the formal sense, Sheridan gunnery was effectively a two-man operation with a driver and an aux MG gunner at the loader's hatch that would drop down and load any main gun rounds called for.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:46 am
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

- C_Sherman
Cool beans. Interesting detail info, that I probably never would have noticed! Those parts are pretty much always completely covered, so unless you are prowling around relics with their canvas covers shredded you'll never notice there is a difference.

IIRC, the M60-series came about during some really secret-squirrel times of the Cold War, so I expect that any discussion of the design changes was immediately classified. It's probably declassified now, but Lord only knows what vault or file archive the documents are buried in.

Having never developed the double-jointed wrist and third elbow to be able to effectively reload the M85 without exiting the cupola, and the coordination to traverse and elevate the thing anywhere but on stationary, flat range firing points, I agree that the M19 cupola sucked. The MG itself sucked too.

C


As time permits, I'll peruse some documents that arrived at my house anonymously on an external HD and see if there's anything to be gleaned from those. During that era, there was a lot of sensitivity to cost on these systems (tanks as early as '58 were considered for 120mm guns, ergo the spacious turret of the M48 and it's successors. Decision was made to milk the ballistic performance of the 105 to it's logical limit before shopping for all new guns.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:09 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

Doug

Sounds like you are overdue for some 'professional reading'...

Cool Wink


Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

- C_Sherman


IIRC, the M60-series came about during some really secret-squirrel times of the Cold War, so I expect that any discussion of the design changes was immediately classified. It's probably declassified now, but Lord only knows what vault or file archive the documents are buried in.

C


It's probably more likely that it just wasn't that important. Going by my research into Shermans and Stuarts in WW II (where all the info, secret on down, is available) there were hundreds of changes that were simply phased into production as improvements without any high level fanfare. Certainly there was some discussion at the engineering level, but much of this has been lost as it was really little more than day-to-day operations.

Today I work in a similar environment that has been making propulsion plants for the Navy for over fifty years. We have one of the most comprehensive systems I've ever seen for documenting actions and retrieving information, but on a weekly basis something comes up where people ask "Why is that there?" Sometimes we can find the answer, sometimes one of the silverbacks will remember a key detail, and sometimes we never find out.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

Kurt,

Agreed, your description of what happens at work says it best. I can imagine Anniston and what it was like when they were in full swing. Some things are best just solved at local level not requiring the stop in work for TACOM to approve. There are many "Sherman" aficionados who delve into this with the zeal of of a forensic scientist and archeologist. Looking at something and then trying to deduce why. I am that way with the M60 series, but have much less company. Maybe someday She'll get the respect she deserves for carrying the bulk of the Cold War on her shoulders for the US Armor forces, even though that was never the intent.

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:10 am
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

- Dontos
Doug

Sounds like you are overdue for some 'professional reading'...

Cool Wink


Don


I've only scratched the surface of what's been made available. I especially enjoyed the "Kamp Report", among others.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Geoff_walden
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: M60 detail for exacting model builders

- Joe_D
One of the later and better ideas that came out with the A3 was the last round over ride function. Kept you from completely expending all your ammo so you could link up another belt without having to reload the weapon.


We had the last round override switch on our late M60A1 (RISE) Passive tanks in 3AD ca. 1980. I don't know when this was cut into production - my tank was S/N 9816. I kinda thought it was a pain, but I only fired at Graf where we never reloaded the M85 feed tray (we had an allowance of 100-150 rounds, and if we fired all of that, that was all she wrote ... time to fire the main gun at a truck target (and there goes your Distinguished patch out the window :). But I can see its purpose in combat.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum