±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 1
Visitors: 782
Total: 783
Who Is Where:
 Members:
01: JWB2 > Community Forums
 Visitors:
01: Downloads
02: News Archive
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Photo Gallery
08: Home
09: Photo Gallery
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: News Archive
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Your Account
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: News Archive
46: Downloads
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Photo Gallery
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Photo Gallery
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Home
65: Home
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Photo Gallery
70: Community Forums
71: CPGlang
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: CPGlang
76: Community Forums
77: Photo Gallery
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: CPGlang
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Downloads
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Your Account
91: Your Account
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Photo Gallery
100: Photo Gallery
101: Statistics
102: Home
103: Home
104: Home
105: Downloads
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: Home
112: Home
113: Photo Gallery
114: Community Forums
115: CPGlang
116: Home
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: CPGlang
120: Your Account
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Member Screenshots
124: Member Screenshots
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Your Account
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Member Screenshots
143: Home
144: Member Screenshots
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Downloads
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Downloads
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Downloads
173: Member Screenshots
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Downloads
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Photo Gallery
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Photo Gallery
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: News Archive
196: Community Forums
197: Photo Gallery
198: Photo Gallery
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: CPGlang
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: CPGlang
210: Photo Gallery
211: Photo Gallery
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Home
215: Photo Gallery
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Member Screenshots
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Community Forums
236: Photo Gallery
237: Community Forums
238: Downloads
239: CPGlang
240: Community Forums
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Statistics
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Home
252: Community Forums
253: Photo Gallery
254: Photo Gallery
255: Photo Gallery
256: Downloads
257: Downloads
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Your Account
266: Community Forums
267: Downloads
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: News Archive
273: Home
274: Downloads
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Downloads
281: Photo Gallery
282: Photo Gallery
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Member Screenshots
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Home
293: Community Forums
294: Home
295: Photo Gallery
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Home
301: Downloads
302: Community Forums
303: Photo Gallery
304: Photo Gallery
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Photo Gallery
309: Photo Gallery
310: Home
311: Downloads
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: News Archive
320: CPGlang
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Photo Gallery
325: Community Forums
326: Downloads
327: CPGlang
328: Photo Gallery
329: Your Account
330: Community Forums
331: Downloads
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Your Account
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Photo Gallery
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Your Account
344: Home
345: Photo Gallery
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Home
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Home
355: Community Forums
356: Photo Gallery
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Photo Gallery
362: Community Forums
363: Home
364: Downloads
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Community Forums
383: Home
384: Photo Gallery
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Community Forums
392: Statistics
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Photo Gallery
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Member Screenshots
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Photo Gallery
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Downloads
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Downloads
421: Photo Gallery
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Home
425: Photo Gallery
426: Community Forums
427: Member Screenshots
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Home
433: Home
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Home
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Photo Gallery
449: Home
450: CPGlang
451: News
452: Photo Gallery
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Your Account
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Photo Gallery
462: Home
463: Community Forums
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Downloads
469: Community Forums
470: Photo Gallery
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: News Archive
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Member Screenshots
483: Home
484: Photo Gallery
485: Home
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Photo Gallery
490: Home
491: Photo Gallery
492: Home
493: Photo Gallery
494: Member Screenshots
495: Community Forums
496: Member Screenshots
497: Downloads
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: CPGlang
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Downloads
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Photo Gallery
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Downloads
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Member Screenshots
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Downloads
518: Community Forums
519: Photo Gallery
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Your Account
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Member Screenshots
532: Downloads
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Photo Gallery
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Member Screenshots
548: Member Screenshots
549: Home
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Home
554: Photo Gallery
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Home
564: Photo Gallery
565: Home
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Home
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Home
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: CPGlang
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Photo Gallery
588: Home
589: Downloads
590: Member Screenshots
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Home
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Home
604: Your Account
605: Home
606: Statistics
607: Photo Gallery
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Home
611: Community Forums
612: Photo Gallery
613: Photo Gallery
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Downloads
617: Community Forums
618: Photo Gallery
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Downloads
623: Home
624: Community Forums
625: Photo Gallery
626: Community Forums
627: Downloads
628: Community Forums
629: News
630: Community Forums
631: CPGlang
632: Photo Gallery
633: Photo Gallery
634: News Archive
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Photo Gallery
638: Photo Gallery
639: Home
640: Community Forums
641: Home
642: Community Forums
643: Photo Gallery
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Photo Gallery
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Member Screenshots
657: Member Screenshots
658: Community Forums
659: Photo Gallery
660: Home
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Home
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Community Forums
667: Home
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Home
671: Community Forums
672: Home
673: Community Forums
674: Home
675: Community Forums
676: Photo Gallery
677: Photo Gallery
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Home
681: Community Forums
682: Home
683: Community Forums
684: LinkToUs
685: Community Forums
686: Photo Gallery
687: Photo Gallery
688: Home
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Home
692: Photo Gallery
693: Photo Gallery
694: Community Forums
695: Home
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Photo Gallery
699: Home
700: Community Forums
701: CPGlang
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Photo Gallery
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Community Forums
710: Photo Gallery
711: News Archive
712: Statistics
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Photo Gallery
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Downloads
719: Home
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Home
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: CPGlang
728: Photo Gallery
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Your Account
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Community Forums
738: Home
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Photo Gallery
747: Community Forums
748: Photo Gallery
749: Member Screenshots
750: Photo Gallery
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Community Forums
755: Downloads
756: Home
757: Community Forums
758: Community Forums
759: Community Forums
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Your Account
763: Your Account
764: Community Forums
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Community Forums
768: Community Forums
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Community Forums
772: Home
773: Community Forums
774: Photo Gallery
775: Community Forums
776: Community Forums
777: Photo Gallery
778: Community Forums
779: Community Forums
780: Community Forums
781: Photo Gallery
782: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M48/M60 Turret ID
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:30 pm
Post subject: M48/M60 Turret ID

I'm looking at photos of Israeli tanks and I'm curious how to differentiate an M48A3 (low profile cupola) turret from an M60(A0) turret if the M48A3 has a 105mm gun?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Rick_Eshleman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 26, 2011
Posts: 908
Location: Lewes, Delaware, USA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark,
Here's 2 views of the M60A0 turret at Annapolis. I don't have any M48A3 views, but it's a start. Rick
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail AIM Address Photo Gallery
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:25 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60A0 turret was more squared off in the back than the M48 turret.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60 never appeared without the distinctive cupola (M19?...can't recall), as far as I've ever known.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.

I’ll bet that JoeD can really nail this question, but I’ll give it a shot.

As mikek points out, the M60A0 turret does have an oddly-squarish shape at the back right-hand side, by the antenna mount. The M48-series turret is very rounded in that area. Interestingly -- at least some M60A0s also have a machine gun pintle mount at the back of the turret . . . “inside” the bustle rack. [I think that this was pointed out to me by someone on this forum a few years ago. JoeD? Gary Owsley?] Both of these features can be seen in the drawing in Hunnicutt’s Patton. You can just make out the pintle mount in Rick’s first picture, above.

I was going to say that the definitive identification feature is the location of the lifting eyes on the turret, but a quick look through Patton and a few other references shows this not to be the case. In any event, I believe that the M48-series always used a “one-two” pattern to the turret lifting eyes (one in the front, in the center of the turret glacis; two at the back, on the turret sides). Apparently, some M60A0s also used this pattern, but some M60A0s also used a “two-one” pattern (two at the front, on the upper sides of the turret [like the M60A1]; one at the back, on the center of the turret roof). The M60A0 in Rick’s two photos above have this “two-one” pattern. I do not know what the details of this difference are; perhaps it is due to a different manufacturer? Apparently the first 360 M60A0s were built at Chrysler’s Newark, Delaware plant. From vehicle 361 on, production was carried out at the Detroit Tank Arsenal. Since photos of the initial production vehicles awaiting delivery show the M48-style “one-two” turret lifting eye pattern, and a photo of “late M60 production by Chrysler at the Detroit Tank Arsenal” in Patton shows the other “two-one” pattern lifting eyes, I’m going to guess that the change was due to the different manufacturer.

In any case, I think that if you see turret lifting eyes on the front upper sides of an M48/M60A0-style turret, you can probably bet that it is an M60A0.

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.

Hopefully, JoeD will see this and hop in here.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:34 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.


Interesting. I don't believe I have ever seen a photo of an M60 without the cupola, although I can certainly understand why the Israelis would do away with them. It's possible that I just assumed that I was looking at an M48 in the absence of other identifying features.

Any chance of a photo?

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Israeli M48 & M60 cupolas . . . there’s a subject for a post!

Short version (and some of these details might be soft or just plain wrong, so if anyone knows better, please jump in here): before the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Israelis had replaced the M1 cupola on a lot of their M48s with the “all-round” (i.e., six-periscope) vision cupola from the Sherman. I believe that at about the time of the ’73 War they were in the process of — or planning to — replace both the M1 cupola and the Sherman cupola with the ‘new’ Urdan cupola, which was just basically a modified version of the original cupola from the M48(A0). It is possible that some M60A0s/M60A1s had their cupolas replaced with the same cupolas mentioned above before the 1973 war, but I can’t think of any pictures of them.

After the 1973 War, most, if not all, Israeli M48-series and M60-series MBTs received the Urdan* cupola as part of the rebuild/upgrade process. The new feature of the Urdan cupola was its ability to be opened on a partial, protected mode, with the hatch cover held parallel to the turret roof, open about 4-6 inches over the cupola opening. This provided the TC with overhead cover, while still allowing direct vision.

If this link works . . . here is an Israeli M60A0 rebuilt to Mag’ach 7 standards:

www.primeportal.net/ta.../magach_7/

You can see the Urdan cupola at the TC’s position. And, if you look hard enough, you can almost recognize an M60A0 under all that added armor and equipment.




Mark



* Edit: I should point out that this is the same cupola that the U.S. later used on their late-model M48A5 (Low-Profile) upgrade.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:02 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I knew about the M48 conversions, for both the Israelis and the US tanks. I actually used the Urdan cupola on an M48A5 for a short period, and rather liked it. I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.

I guess I don't think of the Mag'ach conversions as M60s, with all the additional stuff added on the outside. I know that under all that there is an M60, but it's pretty hard to tell from a quick look. They certainly make version ID really tough!

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

What got me started on this was that for some reason I was thinking that the Israeli M48A3 with a 105mm gun was also known as M48A4. A Wikipedia article says the M48A4 had the turret from an M60(A0). So what I was wondering was if you see an Israeli M48 with a 105mm gun then does it possibly have an M60(A0) turret?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark:

References aren't to hand right now (Hunnicutt, primarily, and possibly also Jim Mesko's Squadron/Signal book on M48s) . . . but if I remember correctly, the official M48A4 designation never actually got used, since the imagined surplus of turrets from the M60A0s converted to M60A2s never happened. I believe that only one such tank ever existed (and it might have been known as an M48A1E2 or something like that). I think that the Mesko book mentioned that the Israeli conversions of their M48-series to "M48A5-standard" were then unofficially referred to as M48A4s in U.S. paperwork. So, I kind of doubt that you would see an Israeli M48Ax with an M60A0 turret — at least not coming from U.S. sources. What sort of modifications and/or turret switching the Israelis carried out is sort of above and beyond . . .

Bear in mind, this is all from memory, so it could be a bit twisted. Or just wrong.

I suppose, if you see an obviously M48 hull, with a turret with the funny squared-off right rear area, or a 'two-one' pattern to the turret lifting eyes, then you've probably found an ersatz M48A4 . . . at least by the 'book-description'. I've never seen one, but then again, I've also never set out to see if I could find one, before a couple nights ago.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark


Well, cool! Now I've seen an M60 without the cupola.

(BTW, I'm not at all sure the cupola was actually called M19. That just stuck in my memory for some reason, and it may be completely wrong. I do know we never referred to them as a CWS.)

Thanks. I've been schooled, and I appreciate it.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:51 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.


Gary (it IS Gary, isn’t it?):

You are absolutely right -- the hull would be the dead give-away in almost any case. Thanks for throwing in on this one. I actually did mention hulls as a method of differentiation in the fifth post of this thread:

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.


. . . but as I added, the original poster was specifically looking for information on identifying the turret . . . for whatever reason. Perhaps the tank is hull-down, or maybe the picture he is looking at is cropped, or maybe the turret wasn’t mounted on a tank, or maybe he wonders if maybe he might be looking at an M48A4 instead . . . the latter theory apparently being exactly what he had in mind. So I was pretty much concentrating on identifying the turret type, figuring that if he had really wanted to identify the tank type by the hull, he would have asked that question instead.

But you’re right, Gary, if you can see the hull (and if you’re confident that you’re not looking at an M48A4 -- or an ersatz M48A4), then you have a pretty good idea whether it is an M48-series vehicle or an M60-series vehicle.

Chuck, Mark, et al:

I had a look in Hunnicutt’s Patton, and the standard M60-series cupola is the M19 (although it is described in one caption on page 159 of that same book as the “M29”, which is presumably a typo). In a previous post, I used the name “M48A1E2” to describe the M48A4 ‘protoytpe’; this was incorrect, and should have been “M48A1E3” (additionally, there were two of these ‘prototype’ tanks built, not one). I did find it interesting that the M48A4 was originally going to be called the XM735, and the M48A5 was originally slated to be called the XM736.

I seems to me that the first time I can ever recall the M48A4 mentioned was in an article on post-WWII American armor in a magazine called . . . if my memory serves me correctly: Combat Illustrated . . . circa the mid- to late 1970s (or maybe the early 1980s). I can’t find it anywhere; I would think I would still have it. Does anyone recall that magazine or article?




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum