±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 748
Total: 748
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Photo Gallery
03: Photo Gallery
04: Home
05: CPGlang
06: Community Forums
07: Photo Gallery
08: Home
09: Photo Gallery
10: Home
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Home
22: Home
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: News
27: Community Forums
28: Your Account
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: CPGlang
32: Community Forums
33: CPGlang
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Home
43: News Archive
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Member Screenshots
50: Photo Gallery
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Statistics
55: Photo Gallery
56: Community Forums
57: Photo Gallery
58: Home
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: CPGlang
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Your Account
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Photo Gallery
83: Home
84: Photo Gallery
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Member Screenshots
89: Community Forums
90: Home
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Photo Gallery
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Your Account
101: Community Forums
102: Member Screenshots
103: Photo Gallery
104: Home
105: Photo Gallery
106: Photo Gallery
107: Your Account
108: Home
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: CPGlang
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Home
129: News
130: Home
131: Photo Gallery
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Your Account
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: CPGlang
139: Home
140: Your Account
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Photo Gallery
144: Member Screenshots
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Photo Gallery
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Photo Gallery
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Your Account
171: Photo Gallery
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Downloads
190: Home
191: Downloads
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: CPGlang
195: Your Account
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Community Forums
199: Your Account
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Photo Gallery
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Downloads
211: Photo Gallery
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Photo Gallery
217: Downloads
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: Photo Gallery
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Downloads
227: Community Forums
228: Downloads
229: Community Forums
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Your Account
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Home
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Statistics
243: Community Forums
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Photo Gallery
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Member Screenshots
250: Photo Gallery
251: Home
252: Photo Gallery
253: Home
254: Community Forums
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Member Screenshots
258: Member Screenshots
259: Downloads
260: CPGlang
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Your Account
267: Downloads
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Photo Gallery
286: Photo Gallery
287: Member Screenshots
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Photo Gallery
292: Photo Gallery
293: News
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Your Account
298: Downloads
299: Home
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Home
305: CPGlang
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Photo Gallery
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: CPGlang
313: Downloads
314: Photo Gallery
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Member Screenshots
320: Community Forums
321: Home
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Photo Gallery
330: News Archive
331: Community Forums
332: Home
333: Community Forums
334: CPGlang
335: CPGlang
336: Community Forums
337: CPGlang
338: Photo Gallery
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: CPGlang
342: Your Account
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Home
346: CPGlang
347: Community Forums
348: Home
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Home
352: Member Screenshots
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: CPGlang
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: CPGlang
360: Community Forums
361: Downloads
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Member Screenshots
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Your Account
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Statistics
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Statistics
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Photo Gallery
392: Member Screenshots
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: CPGlang
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Photo Gallery
400: Photo Gallery
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Home
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Downloads
411: Community Forums
412: Photo Gallery
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Home
416: Community Forums
417: Home
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Photo Gallery
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Statistics
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Community Forums
435: CPGlang
436: Photo Gallery
437: Your Account
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: CPGlang
447: CPGlang
448: Community Forums
449: Downloads
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Home
453: Photo Gallery
454: Photo Gallery
455: Photo Gallery
456: Photo Gallery
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Your Account
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Photo Gallery
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Member Screenshots
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Member Screenshots
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Home
489: Community Forums
490: Downloads
491: Photo Gallery
492: Home
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Downloads
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: CPGlang
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Downloads
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Home
507: Photo Gallery
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Home
516: Photo Gallery
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: CPGlang
528: Home
529: Community Forums
530: Downloads
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Photo Gallery
534: Photo Gallery
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Photo Gallery
538: Community Forums
539: CPGlang
540: Home
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Photo Gallery
546: Community Forums
547: Photo Gallery
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Photo Gallery
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Member Screenshots
556: Community Forums
557: Home
558: Photo Gallery
559: Your Account
560: Community Forums
561: Photo Gallery
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Photo Gallery
566: Community Forums
567: Photo Gallery
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Member Screenshots
571: Community Forums
572: Member Screenshots
573: Downloads
574: Community Forums
575: Member Screenshots
576: Community Forums
577: Photo Gallery
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Home
582: Photo Gallery
583: Photo Gallery
584: Community Forums
585: Home
586: Photo Gallery
587: Photo Gallery
588: Community Forums
589: Member Screenshots
590: Photo Gallery
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Home
594: Community Forums
595: Home
596: Home
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Home
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Photo Gallery
604: CPGlang
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Home
609: Community Forums
610: Home
611: Downloads
612: Home
613: Community Forums
614: Photo Gallery
615: Community Forums
616: CPGlang
617: Home
618: CPGlang
619: Community Forums
620: Member Screenshots
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Home
624: Home
625: Community Forums
626: Member Screenshots
627: CPGlang
628: Photo Gallery
629: Downloads
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: CPGlang
634: CPGlang
635: Member Screenshots
636: Community Forums
637: Photo Gallery
638: Downloads
639: Community Forums
640: Home
641: Community Forums
642: Home
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Photo Gallery
653: Downloads
654: Community Forums
655: CPGlang
656: Photo Gallery
657: Photo Gallery
658: Community Forums
659: Photo Gallery
660: Community Forums
661: Photo Gallery
662: Photo Gallery
663: Photo Gallery
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Member Screenshots
669: Photo Gallery
670: Home
671: Photo Gallery
672: Community Forums
673: Photo Gallery
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Photo Gallery
677: Community Forums
678: Home
679: Community Forums
680: Photo Gallery
681: Community Forums
682: CPGlang
683: Community Forums
684: Home
685: Community Forums
686: Photo Gallery
687: Community Forums
688: Photo Gallery
689: Member Screenshots
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Photo Gallery
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Downloads
705: Member Screenshots
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Photo Gallery
710: Photo Gallery
711: Community Forums
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Home
715: Home
716: Community Forums
717: Your Account
718: Community Forums
719: Photo Gallery
720: Community Forums
721: Home
722: Community Forums
723: Statistics
724: Home
725: Photo Gallery
726: Photo Gallery
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums
730: Photo Gallery
731: Community Forums
732: Photo Gallery
733: Community Forums
734: Your Account
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Home
741: CPGlang
742: Photo Gallery
743: Photo Gallery
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Home
748: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M48/M60 Turret ID
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:30 pm
Post subject: M48/M60 Turret ID

I'm looking at photos of Israeli tanks and I'm curious how to differentiate an M48A3 (low profile cupola) turret from an M60(A0) turret if the M48A3 has a 105mm gun?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Rick_Eshleman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 26, 2011
Posts: 908
Location: Lewes, Delaware, USA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark,
Here's 2 views of the M60A0 turret at Annapolis. I don't have any M48A3 views, but it's a start. Rick
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail AIM Address Photo Gallery
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:25 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60A0 turret was more squared off in the back than the M48 turret.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60 never appeared without the distinctive cupola (M19?...can't recall), as far as I've ever known.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.

I’ll bet that JoeD can really nail this question, but I’ll give it a shot.

As mikek points out, the M60A0 turret does have an oddly-squarish shape at the back right-hand side, by the antenna mount. The M48-series turret is very rounded in that area. Interestingly -- at least some M60A0s also have a machine gun pintle mount at the back of the turret . . . “inside” the bustle rack. [I think that this was pointed out to me by someone on this forum a few years ago. JoeD? Gary Owsley?] Both of these features can be seen in the drawing in Hunnicutt’s Patton. You can just make out the pintle mount in Rick’s first picture, above.

I was going to say that the definitive identification feature is the location of the lifting eyes on the turret, but a quick look through Patton and a few other references shows this not to be the case. In any event, I believe that the M48-series always used a “one-two” pattern to the turret lifting eyes (one in the front, in the center of the turret glacis; two at the back, on the turret sides). Apparently, some M60A0s also used this pattern, but some M60A0s also used a “two-one” pattern (two at the front, on the upper sides of the turret [like the M60A1]; one at the back, on the center of the turret roof). The M60A0 in Rick’s two photos above have this “two-one” pattern. I do not know what the details of this difference are; perhaps it is due to a different manufacturer? Apparently the first 360 M60A0s were built at Chrysler’s Newark, Delaware plant. From vehicle 361 on, production was carried out at the Detroit Tank Arsenal. Since photos of the initial production vehicles awaiting delivery show the M48-style “one-two” turret lifting eye pattern, and a photo of “late M60 production by Chrysler at the Detroit Tank Arsenal” in Patton shows the other “two-one” pattern lifting eyes, I’m going to guess that the change was due to the different manufacturer.

In any case, I think that if you see turret lifting eyes on the front upper sides of an M48/M60A0-style turret, you can probably bet that it is an M60A0.

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.

Hopefully, JoeD will see this and hop in here.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:34 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.


Interesting. I don't believe I have ever seen a photo of an M60 without the cupola, although I can certainly understand why the Israelis would do away with them. It's possible that I just assumed that I was looking at an M48 in the absence of other identifying features.

Any chance of a photo?

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Israeli M48 & M60 cupolas . . . there’s a subject for a post!

Short version (and some of these details might be soft or just plain wrong, so if anyone knows better, please jump in here): before the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Israelis had replaced the M1 cupola on a lot of their M48s with the “all-round” (i.e., six-periscope) vision cupola from the Sherman. I believe that at about the time of the ’73 War they were in the process of — or planning to — replace both the M1 cupola and the Sherman cupola with the ‘new’ Urdan cupola, which was just basically a modified version of the original cupola from the M48(A0). It is possible that some M60A0s/M60A1s had their cupolas replaced with the same cupolas mentioned above before the 1973 war, but I can’t think of any pictures of them.

After the 1973 War, most, if not all, Israeli M48-series and M60-series MBTs received the Urdan* cupola as part of the rebuild/upgrade process. The new feature of the Urdan cupola was its ability to be opened on a partial, protected mode, with the hatch cover held parallel to the turret roof, open about 4-6 inches over the cupola opening. This provided the TC with overhead cover, while still allowing direct vision.

If this link works . . . here is an Israeli M60A0 rebuilt to Mag’ach 7 standards:

www.primeportal.net/ta.../magach_7/

You can see the Urdan cupola at the TC’s position. And, if you look hard enough, you can almost recognize an M60A0 under all that added armor and equipment.




Mark



* Edit: I should point out that this is the same cupola that the U.S. later used on their late-model M48A5 (Low-Profile) upgrade.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:02 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I knew about the M48 conversions, for both the Israelis and the US tanks. I actually used the Urdan cupola on an M48A5 for a short period, and rather liked it. I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.

I guess I don't think of the Mag'ach conversions as M60s, with all the additional stuff added on the outside. I know that under all that there is an M60, but it's pretty hard to tell from a quick look. They certainly make version ID really tough!

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

What got me started on this was that for some reason I was thinking that the Israeli M48A3 with a 105mm gun was also known as M48A4. A Wikipedia article says the M48A4 had the turret from an M60(A0). So what I was wondering was if you see an Israeli M48 with a 105mm gun then does it possibly have an M60(A0) turret?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark:

References aren't to hand right now (Hunnicutt, primarily, and possibly also Jim Mesko's Squadron/Signal book on M48s) . . . but if I remember correctly, the official M48A4 designation never actually got used, since the imagined surplus of turrets from the M60A0s converted to M60A2s never happened. I believe that only one such tank ever existed (and it might have been known as an M48A1E2 or something like that). I think that the Mesko book mentioned that the Israeli conversions of their M48-series to "M48A5-standard" were then unofficially referred to as M48A4s in U.S. paperwork. So, I kind of doubt that you would see an Israeli M48Ax with an M60A0 turret — at least not coming from U.S. sources. What sort of modifications and/or turret switching the Israelis carried out is sort of above and beyond . . .

Bear in mind, this is all from memory, so it could be a bit twisted. Or just wrong.

I suppose, if you see an obviously M48 hull, with a turret with the funny squared-off right rear area, or a 'two-one' pattern to the turret lifting eyes, then you've probably found an ersatz M48A4 . . . at least by the 'book-description'. I've never seen one, but then again, I've also never set out to see if I could find one, before a couple nights ago.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark


Well, cool! Now I've seen an M60 without the cupola.

(BTW, I'm not at all sure the cupola was actually called M19. That just stuck in my memory for some reason, and it may be completely wrong. I do know we never referred to them as a CWS.)

Thanks. I've been schooled, and I appreciate it.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:51 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.


Gary (it IS Gary, isn’t it?):

You are absolutely right -- the hull would be the dead give-away in almost any case. Thanks for throwing in on this one. I actually did mention hulls as a method of differentiation in the fifth post of this thread:

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.


. . . but as I added, the original poster was specifically looking for information on identifying the turret . . . for whatever reason. Perhaps the tank is hull-down, or maybe the picture he is looking at is cropped, or maybe the turret wasn’t mounted on a tank, or maybe he wonders if maybe he might be looking at an M48A4 instead . . . the latter theory apparently being exactly what he had in mind. So I was pretty much concentrating on identifying the turret type, figuring that if he had really wanted to identify the tank type by the hull, he would have asked that question instead.

But you’re right, Gary, if you can see the hull (and if you’re confident that you’re not looking at an M48A4 -- or an ersatz M48A4), then you have a pretty good idea whether it is an M48-series vehicle or an M60-series vehicle.

Chuck, Mark, et al:

I had a look in Hunnicutt’s Patton, and the standard M60-series cupola is the M19 (although it is described in one caption on page 159 of that same book as the “M29”, which is presumably a typo). In a previous post, I used the name “M48A1E2” to describe the M48A4 ‘protoytpe’; this was incorrect, and should have been “M48A1E3” (additionally, there were two of these ‘prototype’ tanks built, not one). I did find it interesting that the M48A4 was originally going to be called the XM735, and the M48A5 was originally slated to be called the XM736.

I seems to me that the first time I can ever recall the M48A4 mentioned was in an article on post-WWII American armor in a magazine called . . . if my memory serves me correctly: Combat Illustrated . . . circa the mid- to late 1970s (or maybe the early 1980s). I can’t find it anywhere; I would think I would still have it. Does anyone recall that magazine or article?




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum