±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 629
Total: 629
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Photo Gallery
05: Photo Gallery
06: Community Forums
07: Your Account
08: Search
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Photo Gallery
15: Home
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Photo Gallery
19: Your Account
20: News
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Photo Gallery
37: Home
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: News
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: CPGlang
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Your Account
61: Community Forums
62: Downloads
63: Community Forums
64: Home
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Downloads
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Your Account
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: CPGlang
92: Statistics
93: Community Forums
94: Downloads
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Home
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Tell a Friend
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Downloads
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Photo Gallery
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Photo Gallery
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Downloads
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Downloads
131: Photo Gallery
132: Community Forums
133: Member Screenshots
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: CPGlang
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Photo Gallery
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Photo Gallery
151: Photo Gallery
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Downloads
155: Community Forums
156: CPGlang
157: Photo Gallery
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Photo Gallery
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Member Screenshots
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Downloads
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: News
178: Home
179: Home
180: Your Account
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Home
184: Photo Gallery
185: Community Forums
186: Photo Gallery
187: Downloads
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: News
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Home
206: Photo Gallery
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Downloads
210: Community Forums
211: Home
212: Home
213: Photo Gallery
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Photo Gallery
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: Photo Gallery
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Your Account
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Photo Gallery
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Downloads
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: CPGlang
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: CPGlang
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Community Forums
254: CPGlang
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: CPGlang
258: Photo Gallery
259: CPGlang
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Photo Gallery
263: Photo Gallery
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Home
267: Photo Gallery
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Your Account
271: Downloads
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Downloads
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: CPGlang
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Photo Gallery
287: Photo Gallery
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: News Archive
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: News Archive
295: Community Forums
296: Photo Gallery
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Photo Gallery
307: Community Forums
308: Photo Gallery
309: Home
310: Community Forums
311: Photo Gallery
312: Your Account
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Downloads
318: Community Forums
319: Member Screenshots
320: Photo Gallery
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Statistics
324: Photo Gallery
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Home
328: Community Forums
329: Home
330: News Archive
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Photo Gallery
336: Photo Gallery
337: Downloads
338: Photo Gallery
339: Photo Gallery
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Your Account
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Home
348: Your Account
349: Home
350: Home
351: Community Forums
352: Home
353: Member Screenshots
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Photo Gallery
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Home
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Home
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: Statistics
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Photo Gallery
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: CPGlang
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Photo Gallery
397: Photo Gallery
398: Community Forums
399: Photo Gallery
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Home
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Home
409: Community Forums
410: Home
411: Member Screenshots
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Tell a Friend
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Photo Gallery
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: Community Forums
431: Downloads
432: Search
433: Home
434: Home
435: Photo Gallery
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Photo Gallery
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Downloads
446: Community Forums
447: Home
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Photo Gallery
460: Community Forums
461: Downloads
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: Community Forums
465: Statistics
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Your Account
472: Downloads
473: Downloads
474: Community Forums
475: Home
476: Home
477: CPGlang
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Photo Gallery
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: News Archive
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Photo Gallery
497: Home
498: Community Forums
499: Home
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Photo Gallery
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Photo Gallery
508: Community Forums
509: Home
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Photo Gallery
514: Home
515: Home
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Downloads
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Photo Gallery
526: CPGlang
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Your Account
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Photo Gallery
534: Your Account
535: Community Forums
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Home
539: Photo Gallery
540: Home
541: Community Forums
542: Photo Gallery
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Member Screenshots
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Home
553: Community Forums
554: CPGlang
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Downloads
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Downloads
562: Community Forums
563: Home
564: Home
565: Photo Gallery
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Photo Gallery
569: Member Screenshots
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: News
584: Home
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Home
588: Community Forums
589: Photo Gallery
590: Downloads
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Member Screenshots
595: Community Forums
596: Your Account
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Home
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Photo Gallery
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Photo Gallery
621: Community Forums
622: Photo Gallery
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Statistics
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:25 pm
Post subject: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hi All,

I made a return trip to the Armed Forces Military Museum in Largo, FL to photograph the cupola on the M4A3 Sherman. I took a number of detail photos and added them to the existing museum gallery. The link below should take you to the page with the new photos.
I also spoke with the museum historian (as I noted in the PBS Motorweek post) regarding the cupola. Via phone I told him that the cupola was a rare, experimental model and wasn’t historically accurate. I offered to send him the info from JoeD’s post if he was interested and did so via email. We’ll see if anything changes, but at least I passed the information on to the museum. Worth a shot.

New photos page link:
www.vgbimages.com/AFV-...;k=F4x24jd

Back to top
View user's profile
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Another issue the museum should be aware of is the tank itself. Try as I might, I have yet to find a picture of a 60 degree M4A3 hull with a T23 turret. Although it's possible, given that the Sherman's 69" turret ring can take it, it doesn't appear to have been done even for trials.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:56 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Was it a postwar development for use on Shermans (for foreign sales)? Or not intended for Shermans at all?
Back to top
View user's profile
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Neil -

Quoting JoeD's post from the Motorweek on PBS thread:

- Joe_D
Would be nice if museums would at least acknowledge that items they have on display are accurate or just representations using similar but not historically correct. Nothing is perfect but seeing "Kit Bashes" like this M4 makes me cringe.

The cupola on this tank is quite rare, it is not from an M48A1, but rather one of the experimental AAI model 108 cupolas designed as a possible replacement for the troublesome M1 cupola which never was adopted. They installed these on the T54/T54E2 turrets the Army tested. The hatch pivots to the side instead of up and back. You can also see this cupola installed on the T95 experimental tank, since the T54E2 turrets were turned over to this program. Some pictures also show it on T95 specific turrets. The original prototype M60 had this same type cupola mounted until the M19 was fully developed. To my knowledge only maybe 5 or 6 of these were made at most, this being a generous estimate. Below are pictures courtesy of Jim's "Jed" site.

T54E2

T95

I have an image back home of the Pilot M60 mounting this cupola, but can't find a copy online to post. Really curious where they got this cupola from. I know T54E2/T95 turrets were scrapped, most likely used as hard targets. Wonder if they found it along with the Sherman Turret on the ranges at Eglin AFB. Lot of stuff was disposed there. Really needs to be recognized for what it is, and possibly some museum offer to trade an authentic Sherman cupola for this one, being quite rare.
Back to top
View user's profile
panamadan
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:58 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Its an odd looking A3-look closely at the hull hatches and bow MG-something is odd here.
Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hence my previous post. The way I see it, it's a mid-production dry stowage hull (as evidenced by the drivers' long cowls lacking direct vision slots and the lack of applique plates on the hull sides) - not a feature normally associated with the T23 type turret.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
panamadan
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:35 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

But look closely at the hull hatches hinges and the front appliqué armor-something looks wrong here.
Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

You're absolutely right, Dan. I got a good hard look at the cowls and there is something definitely fishy, not just the non-standard applique plates, which were probably added during restoration and the hinges. The cowls are not mid-late production as I had originally surmised, since they lack the auxiliary drop-down periscopes on the front and their shape is quite unusual and not even consistent with that of direct vision cowls, not to mention they protrude too much above the hull roof. Even in Hunnicutt's book, I have not been able to find something like that, which leads me to believe they were made during restoration. Maybe the tank lacked them for some reason when it came to the museum or it already had been fitted with those by someone else.
I'm just as bummed as you are now.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

I tink that the drivers' hoods and the bow MG mount were rebuilt. Maybe the hull came from a range and was too badly damaged, that it necessitated to rebuild the front hull?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hey Guys,

I've uploaded a somewhat blurry photo in which you can see what looks like a weld seam coming from the turret ring and going down the glacis plate. It appears that the hatches and most of the glacis plate have been replaced - which would explain the oddities noted on this thread.

Take a look -


Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:29 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

what look original are the hatches, the travel lock, the hull antenna mount and the hull lifting rings.

The drivers' hoods are replicas, and the travel lock mount/supports, front appliqué plates, bow MG are replicas too.

As you said, it seems that a great part of the front armor was missing on this hull.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum