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Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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vagabond
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:04 pm
Post subject: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

Hi All,

We’ve added a gallery of photos from the Museum of the Kansas National Guard in Topeka, KS.

It was, as I posted in the gallery description, literally a running tour of the outside exhibits. We had 20 minutes to grab photos and get back on the road to try and outrun the big snowstorm that was moving in. Glamours of showbiz!

www.vgbimages.com/AFV-...l-/n-3Xq62

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

Still great pics!

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

One of the places on my list to visit VB.

At home where I can look at your images better (Cell phone leaves a lot to be desired).

This is one of the few places where they actually have a power plant co located with a tank, and out doors at that. Without trying to sound like a nit picker, that engine/transmission combo is not for an M60 (A0). The engine is an AVDS-1790-2DA and the transmission is fitted with Hydro-mechanical brakes on the output shafts. It's a 2DA engine based on the 300 amp air cooled generator, easily identified by the air ducting running to the forward part of the engine from it. The large oil coolers, electrical harness connectors and starter relay located on top of the engine make it a "D" model with this generator. The tubing running from the exhaust stacks along the top of the oil coolers is for the VEDES system (Vehicle Exhaust Dust Ejection System). The "A" in 2DA is for VEDES equipped. These particular engines where installed in late model M60A1 RISE Passives, M728A1 CEV's and M60A1 AVLB's. M60A0's had only Mechanical brakes and were never issued with the VEDES system. The tank itself has the earlier aluminum air cleaner units too, only the armored units were equipped with VEDES. The Kansas National Guard never had M60A1's, they went from M60A0 to M60A3's. Most likely this pack came from an M60A1AVLB or M728A1 CEV, since they were in the inventory long after the M60's were retired.

About the M60A0 serial number, M60A0 SN's went up to 2209, then M60A1's were produced. Looking at the tow lug, the numbers visible are stamped top to bottom, this practice stopped when they started with 4 digit SN's, those went left to right and were stamped sideways on the lug. Below the left rear tail light the weld numbers are CF 380 and DT 382. I still haven't figured out their exact relevance but early M60A0 SN's followed very closely these numbers. M60 SN 372 has a CF and DT number of 367. Knowing the last two digits on the tow lug are 74, we can make a really good assumption that this tank is SN 374.

Again, I'm not trying to be a nit picker, and am grateful that these items are actually on display to the public. Most couldn't care less, but I like to explain why when I contradict what's posted on displays. Thanks again for posting all your fantastic images.

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

OK, I never paid attention to the weld numbers before, mainly because I figured they were ultimately unknowable. What you are saying about them being some sort of build sequence number makes sense. Were the M60s made at Detroit Tank Arsenal? That could be the "DT".

I have the following info to add:

SN 23, CF 610, DT 557 . . I got the 23 off the fixed pad on the engine deck. A closer examination of the photo indicates another character before the two visible numerals. 523? 623? Rear hull cast by CFM.

SN 27, CG 23, DT 27 . . . The SN is clear as a bell, lug and both engine deck pads. Rear hull cast by GSC.

SN 280, CG 315, DT 289 . . . SN clear on both engine deck pads. Rear hull cast by GSC.

SN 704, _22, _699 (not in frame in photo) . . . Rear hull cast by CFM.

SN 1446, _216, _211 . . . Rear hull cast by GSC.

SN 1752, BK 476, CT 457 . . . Rear hull cast by ?

SN 1759?, CF 726, CT 510 . . Hull by CFM.

SN 1788, BG 608, CT 555 . . . Hull by GSC

M60A2 SN 4703, WF 22

M60A3 SN 4125A, NG 614

M60A3 SN 4353A, B1055

M60A3 SN 4362A, CB or GB 728

KL
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

Vagabond, Hope you don't mind me adding this link, Forbes Field Air Museum is right next door to the Kansas National Guard Museum, I was there a couple years ago.
Airplanes Topeka
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

- armyjunk2
Vagabond, Hope you don't mind me adding this link, Forbes Field Air Museum is right next door to the Kansas National Guard Museum, I was there a couple years ago.
Airplanes Topeka


I can vouch for that museum as well. Decent collection and display for a place it's size.
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vagabond
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

JoeD - Thanks as always for the education and details! I've changed the titles in the gallery to reflect your info. I don't actually recall IF the engine by the M60A0 was marked with a sign or not - I just assumed that the engine went with the tank.

Nice Pics, AJ2 - looks like you actually got aboard the Lockheed EC-121 Warning Star - lucky you!

Here's the link to our gallery of the Combat Air Museum from 2008:
www.vgbimages.com/AirM...-Topeka-KS

AJ2 was the T101 still there when you visited?
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

- vagabond


Nice Pics, AJ2 - looks like you actually got aboard the Lockheed EC-121 Warning Star - lucky you!


I went through it too, must have been in the late '80's or early '90's. Don't have any pics of the place, as I just stopped over during a business trip to the area. They had a recently recovered but unrestored Dauntless out in the elements at that time (it was very rough and may have been under water). Wonder how it looks today?
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

Kurt,

I've always thought the weld numbers were part of the initial hull fabrication process before being shipped to Newark Delaware plant (First 360 M60's) and then later Detroit. Before shipping, the hulls were machined and had many basic fitting points attached (Escape hatch and access plates, tow and lifting eyes) when they assembled the various pieces. Depending on which foundry, could be multiple castings or just installing the floor plates. Numbers do not coincide with SN's, but generally follow them. I believe that this is due to the SN's being assigned when the tank is completed. Any hull delayed in transport or needing additional work to meet standards could be delayed, resulting with the out of order sequence. I have no idea if the two sets of weld numbers were done at the same time or done when a certain phase of completion was met at the foundry. Wild guess would be one is of the hull fabrication, the other for all the machining and welding. SN would be assigned when complete, and finally a RN when accepted by the Army. Only way to logically explain why none match up sequentially. Below are my M60 Numbers I collected. Notice at around 1200 the numbers revert back and the letters change again. Contract change or new ID, who knows. Anything after M60 SN 1285
weld number are way off from SN, although with enough info maybe a Alpha Numeric code can be deciphered.

SN 10 DT-7 CG-9 Inverted
SN 47 CF-45 DT-41
SN 54 CG-404 DT-427 SN possibly 3 digit
SN 57 CF-49 DT-55
SN 70 CG-75 DT-66
SN 78 CF-59 DT-74
SN 144 CF-147 DT-140
SN 151 CF-145 DT-147
SN 156 CG-149 DT-154
SN 170 CF-150 DT-166
SN 195 CF-183 DT-191
SN 243 CG-238 DT-239
SN 372 CF-367 DT-367
SN 436 CF-488 DT-480
SN 467 CF-468 DT-454
SN 470 CG-510 DT-491
SN 602 CF-520 ??-620 Obscured
SN 624 CF-586 DT-619
SN 625 CG-602 DT-580
SN 674 CF-558 DT-674
SN 723 CG-765 DT-724
SN 746 CG-787 DT-747
SN 763 CG-798 DT-765
SN 770 CF-754 DT-770
SN 786 CF-742 DT-737
SN 878 CF-895 DT-875
SN 879 CF-885 DT-876
SN 891 CG-888 DT-892
SN 943 CF-977 CT-945
SN 966 CG-965 DT-970
SN 1027 CG-979 DT-979
SN 1075 CF-687 DT-1077
SN 1089 CG-1064 DT-1102
SN 1160 CG-1195 DT-1149
SN 1285 BG-90 CT-49
SN 1332 BK-103 CT-103
SN 1374 BG-155 CT-122
SN 1406 BK-167 CT-174
SN 1536 BG-235 CT-273
SN 1561 BK-313 CT-323
SN 1570 BG-366 CT-333
SN 1589 BG-302 CT-334
SN 1611 BG-427 CT-375
SN 1723 BK-242 CT-483
SN 1767 BK-528 CT-534
SN 1892 BG-210 CT-161
SN 1903 BG-632 CT-636
SN 1942 BG-733 CT-702
SN 1950 BK-725 CT-723
SN 1968 BG-728 CT-689
SN 2010 BG-864 CT-768

I pretty much stopped trying to figure it out. I do have a plethora of M60A1 and A3 numbers which confuse me to no end. Just document them and hope one day they might be of value to decipher their build history.

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

Joe, there was a similar system on some Shermans, and as we've discussed here on M41s and M42s.

I suspect that the top number is the production sequence number for the foundry or subcontractor or whatever organization did the main hull assembly, as you describe. It would be essential to track each basic hull, if for no other reason than to track which steps were finished in the procedure. The lower number might be the sequence number as it entered the line at the assembly plant. The purpose of the numbers would again be traceability and production tracking. There is plenty of opportunity for things to get out of phase as defects are noted and an incomplete hull or tank is pulled aside for repair. Even a different unloading/loading sequence would mix things up.

The "handwriting" of the welds looks the same. A plausible explanation is that the hulls were received with sequence markings somewhere else. When the hull started on the assembly line it was a good opportunity to relocate the hull number when the other number was welded on.

The Ordnance serial would not be applied until the Ordnance inspector put his stamp on it and accepted the tank for the Government. This could be right as it came off the line or after a day's or shift's production was complete. (The former is more likely. It prevents slipping a "lemon" in there.)

DT might mean Delaware Tank plant, not Detroit. CT might be Detroit, a reference to Chrysler's original involvement.

KL
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Museum of the Kansas National Guard Gallery

Kurt,

Starting looking at M60A2, AVLB, and CEV weld numbers since their production numbers were much smaller and might give a clue to how the systems worked.

All M60A1 AVLB weld numbers I have correspond very closely to the actual SN's and all start with BL (Bridge Layer???) This would make sense since the hulls fabricated for AVLB duty were cast differently and were thinner in some spots. I noticed the biggest difference internally when inspecting the upper front hull, which had a re enforcing beam cast across the top inside just behind from where the the drivers position would be on a tank. CEV's also have their own unique Weld numbers, and like the AVLB's, were fabricated differently than the standard A1/A3 hulls to accommodate all the internal hydraulics and plumbing. Did not use an add on kit for the blade as the Tank Dozer kit. Weld Prefixes all start with BT, with SN 1 having BT-2.

M60A2's get interesting, with Prefixes of WF, WG, and C. WG and WF examples I've seen were all Generation 3 hulls, and C prefixes GEN 4. Makes sense since the first 300 produced were made and put in storage prior to working out all the bugs. The last 240 were made from the 246 turrets original destined for the M60A1E1 program utilizing M60 (A0) hulls and was cancelled, subsequently being installed on newly produces A1 hulls modified with the CBSS bulge. Below is a list of the ones I have documented.

SN 4427 JK003U WF-85 GEN 3
SN 4446 JK000F WF-31 GEN 3
SN 4466 JK000P WF-140 GEN 3
SN 4494 JK001F WG-204 GEN 3
SN 4666 JK007B C-190 GEN 4
SN 4674 JK006V C-241 GEN 4
SN 4725 C-231 GEN 4
SN 4800 JK00BK C-281 GEN 4
SN 4927 JK00DV C-454 GEN 4

Also noticed (so far) all M60A1/A3 hulls have only a single set of weld numbers just like the AVLB, CEV and M60A2, so double numbers appear to be unique to the M60 hulls.

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