±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 625
Total: 625
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Community Forums
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Member Screenshots
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Photo Gallery
15: Member Screenshots
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Photo Gallery
19: Home
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Community Forums
29: Downloads
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Statistics
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: Downloads
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Member Screenshots
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Member Screenshots
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Downloads
61: Home
62: Photo Gallery
63: Downloads
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Photo Gallery
67: CPGlang
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Downloads
75: Photo Gallery
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Home
84: Downloads
85: Photo Gallery
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: CPGlang
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Member Screenshots
94: Photo Gallery
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Member Screenshots
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Statistics
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Downloads
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: CPGlang
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: CPGlang
126: Photo Gallery
127: Home
128: News Archive
129: Community Forums
130: Member Screenshots
131: Community Forums
132: Home
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Photo Gallery
141: Community Forums
142: Downloads
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Downloads
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Your Account
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Member Screenshots
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: CPGlang
169: Photo Gallery
170: Community Forums
171: Photo Gallery
172: Community Forums
173: Downloads
174: Photo Gallery
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Your Account
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: Home
183: News
184: Downloads
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: Photo Gallery
189: Member Screenshots
190: Home
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Photo Gallery
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Your Account
201: CPGlang
202: Home
203: Downloads
204: Statistics
205: Downloads
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Photo Gallery
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Downloads
215: Photo Gallery
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Home
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Your Account
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Photo Gallery
228: CPGlang
229: Photo Gallery
230: Your Account
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: News
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Your Account
244: CPGlang
245: Photo Gallery
246: Photo Gallery
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Downloads
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: CPGlang
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Home
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Statistics
286: Community Forums
287: Your Account
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: Community Forums
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: CPGlang
295: Photo Gallery
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Home
301: Community Forums
302: Downloads
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Home
310: CPGlang
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: CPGlang
321: Community Forums
322: Statistics
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Home
336: Home
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Photo Gallery
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Home
346: Community Forums
347: Photo Gallery
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Photo Gallery
351: Community Forums
352: News
353: Photo Gallery
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: News Archive
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Home
363: Photo Gallery
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Downloads
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Photo Gallery
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Community Forums
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Photo Gallery
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Your Account
393: Downloads
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: News
397: Home
398: Community Forums
399: Member Screenshots
400: Community Forums
401: Home
402: Downloads
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Photo Gallery
407: Photo Gallery
408: Downloads
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Photo Gallery
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Home
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Photo Gallery
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Downloads
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Photo Gallery
435: CPGlang
436: Community Forums
437: Photo Gallery
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Photo Gallery
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Home
452: Member Screenshots
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Photo Gallery
456: Community Forums
457: Photo Gallery
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: CPGlang
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Member Screenshots
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Downloads
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Photo Gallery
482: Community Forums
483: Photo Gallery
484: Community Forums
485: Downloads
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Photo Gallery
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Downloads
494: Downloads
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Downloads
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Photo Gallery
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Member Screenshots
512: Community Forums
513: Home
514: Home
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Home
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Your Account
524: Home
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Home
533: Photo Gallery
534: Photo Gallery
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Home
539: News Archive
540: CPGlang
541: Community Forums
542: Photo Gallery
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Photo Gallery
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Home
549: Your Account
550: Community Forums
551: Home
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Downloads
555: Photo Gallery
556: Downloads
557: Community Forums
558: Home
559: Photo Gallery
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Home
567: Home
568: Community Forums
569: Photo Gallery
570: Community Forums
571: Photo Gallery
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Your Account
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: CPGlang
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Home
588: Photo Gallery
589: Home
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Your Account
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Photo Gallery
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Photo Gallery
604: Your Account
605: Home
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Home
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Photo Gallery
615: Downloads
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Photo Gallery
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Home
625: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:24 pm
Post subject: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I bought a 20 February Army Times this morning here on post and page 16 had a huge write up on armor, vehicle, and helicopter losses in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001. Here are some numbers from that article;
The Army has lost 85 helicopters broken down as;
-27 Apache's
-21 Black Hawks
-14 Chinooks
-23 Kiowa's
Armor and wheeled vehicles are as follows;
-20 M1 Tanks
-50 Bradley's
-20 Strykers
-20 M113's
-250 Humvees
-500 Medium/Heavy Trucks, FOX recon, mine clearers, and trailers
Additional numbers in the article are;
- 230 M1 were rebuilt in 2005, the number will top 700 in 2006.
- 318 Bradleys rebuilt in 2005, the number will top 600 in 2006.
- 219 M113's in 2005, the number will top 614 in 2006.
- 5,000 Humvees in 2005, the number will top 9,000 in 2006.
- 44 aircraft in 2005, the number will be close to 85 in 2006.
The Army has ordered 16 new Apaches, and 5 new Black Hawks. But cannot replace the 27 Kiowas because production lines are no longer open.
Quote- "There are thousands of small arms, radios, and generators that require major repair and overhaul. The repair backlog includes almost every major equipment item, from 50 caliber machine guns to hundreds of thousands of pads for tank tracks".
There are currently 30,000 Humvees in theater, once the war is over, 6,000 will be "washed out" upon return to the states, the rest will be repaired and overhauled.
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each. The upgrades will reduce the M1 versions from 5 to 2, (M1A1 AIM and the M1A2 SEP). Bradleys will also be reduced to just 2 versions.
Army workshops have cranked up capacity from 11 million man hours in 2002, to 20 million hours in 2005. AMC sends half its repair work to private-sector firms to help with the load.
Crunch those numbers, pretty staggering. Just thought you all might be interested.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

Over a 15 year period, it sounds like a bad 1-2 months in Vietnam (four months, if counting casualties), a testament to the sound designs of the equipment, their employment, and the infrastructure in place to get them back into the inventory.

To focus on a single type for comparison, there were 7,013 UH-1's (all variants) that served in Vietnam, of which 3,305 were destroyed.

Total helicopters destroyed in the Vietnam War was 5,086 out of 11,827.

Vehicles would be more difficult to account for, because many never came home..they were transferred to the ARVN as units pulled out. This includes numerous armored vehicles, including mine.

Obviously, the costs have gone up, adjusted for 35-40 years of inflation.

Not too shabby, IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:35 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

"There are thousands of small arms, radios, and generators that require major repair and overhaul. The repair backlog includes almost every major equipment item, from 50 caliber machine guns to hundreds of thousands of pads for tank tracks".

There will be plenty of work for civilians at the arsenals, and in associated businesses. If you consider the work to rebuild ONE M4 carbine to specification, that means a full parts bin, a technician who understands the design and how to run the gauges, plus a series of inspectors at both ends of the supply chain. Will the US be buying more new gear, scrapping old gear or making do with current designs through to the next big purchasing period?
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:03 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
Will the US be buying more new gear, scrapping old gear or making do with current designs through to the next big purchasing period?


Hi all!

Maple, the answer to your question is "some of each". The Army is using this as an opportunity to "spiral" new technologies and systems into service. Some of the old gear will be replaced with equivalent items. Some will be rebuilt, but to 0-hour condition with all the latest upgrades installed. And some items will be scrapped and replaced with improved and new systems. The idea is to push advanced technologies and systems into the field as they become available, and to keep existing equipment in peak condition, while culling older and less capable equipment out.

The Pentagram has a pretty comprehensive plan for maintaining our capabilities and continuing the Transformation effort, as long as our Congress will fund it. Of course, that is the hurdle, since they will bicker about the funding while wasting twice that amount on silly pet projects. The bottom line is that the health of the Army rests in the hands of the civilian leadership.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I still wonder what the criteria for that list included with the ground vehicles in mind.

Is it:
Operational loss (broke beyond theater level repair),
Castrophic loss (...BLOWN UP, BURN DOWN or something such as that !!)

As for Aircraft, thats simple since if hit by enemy fire/mechanical failure and crash, the airframe most likely is a total write-off. Rapid Deaccelaration with 'terra-firma' tends to condemn the aircraft as NMC.

Just a few thoughts,

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:56 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

[img][/img][img][/img]
That article mentions that most all vehicle losses were due to IED's and car bombs, so I'm assuming that all the vehicles were total losses. As great as the Stryker might be, the mesh grill attached to it sure makes it look awkward for use in an urban enviroment, even thought the mesh no-doubt saves the crew and vehicle from RPG attacks.
I noticed in an USA Today article in Fridays edition, that the Navy is retiring the F-14 Tomcat, after 32 years of service. Its replacement the F18E/F Super Hornet has a 214mph slower top speed, and costs 24.6 Million dollars more than the F14's cost when new, (47.3 mil for the F14 in 1974 VS 71.9mil for the F18 in 1999). Seems that the F14 costs to much to repair. An F14 requires 50 hours of maint for each 1 hour of flight, versus 5-10 hours of maint for the F18. Also mentioned was the fact that the F14 was aimed at dogfighting, (as in top-gun fame) but that it is no longer needed since jets now shoot missiles at each other from miles away. The last F14 to fly a combat mission was February 8th, when Cpt. William Sizemore flew over Iraq with another F14 from the USS Theodore Roosevelt and dropped bombs. The F14 is being called the "last of the pure fighters". Do you supposse that a bunch of F14's will end up at China Lake as targets? What a sad fate for such a wonderful bird.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
The F14 is being called the "last of the pure fighters". Do you supposse that a bunch of F14's will end up at China Lake as targets? What a sad fate for such a wonderful bird.


Earlier generations have made similar claims for their favorite bird. At least one Vietnam War Navy or USMC jet jockey was quoted as saying "when you're out of F-8's, you're outta fighters!". Not everyone was happy to trade their F-8 Crusaders for the heavier, less agile, multi-role F-4. Laughing

David
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I don't see how the F-14 can be considered a 'Pure Fighter' It was designed as a Fleet Air Defense Interceptor and wasn't supposed to have to dogfight at all. It was supposed to engage targets at 100 miles with the Phoenix missle. Suppsoedly it would shoot six maissles and let the computer figure out which targets to aim them at

Now when the F-15 was designed the mantra was 'Not a pound for Air to Ground' Everything was made as light as possible including making wire bundles just long enough to reach the boxes they went to meaning that when I neaded to replace the Comm control panel on an early F-15A I had to reach way down into the side console and ghook up 3 cannon plugs by feel with about 2 " of slack. And if you got a cannon plug on crooked and bent a pin it could take hours to replace the connector with it's 125 pins. Al of it done way down inside the plane where you couldn't see what you were doing. Later A models had about 6" of slack in the cables. but pilots used to get the early birds whenever possible they swore that there was a performance difference with the lighter birds. We were told that over 100 pounds had been saved just by making sure no cable was longer than neccesary. The F-15 was the last of the real dogfighters. The F-16 can't dogfight because of the 'fly by wire' side stick controller. With the side stick the pilot is only suggesting to the flight control computer what manuever he wants to make. the computer decides how much control to apply making sure the airframe is not 'over Ged' As one F-15 pilot i debriefed put it "If I have a missle coming up my tail I WANT to over G the airframe. I don't want some computer overriding my inputs because 'I may over stress the airframe and shorten the life of the aircraft' I want to pull that airplane around as tight as I can and if I pop a few rivets that is fine with me. If I pull the wings off then I'll eject but If I get away with it I'll help do the over G inspection when I get home" By the way the highest recorded G load on an F-15 was 19Gs in air combat manuevering. The pilot momentarily blacked out but he mad it back to the base. The wingtips were 1.5" higher than they should be (as measured before it was 'one time flight' back to St Louis. I wish I could remember the tail number of that plane.

About the F-8 remember the Navy never did put a gun in their F-4s which also made converting from the Crusader to the Phantom a less than desirable assignment for many fighter jocks.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- bsmart
About the F-8 remember the Navy never did put a gun in their F-4s which also made converting from the Crusader to the Phantom a less than desirable assignment for many fighter jocks.


True enough, Bob. And I'm sure a source of endless frustration to many F-4 jocks (AF, Navy, and USMC alike) who found themselves point blank to an NVAF MiG-17 or MiG-21 and unable to do anything about it. (Inside arming distance for AIM-9, let alone AIM-7!) I was actually thinking more about the fact that our squadron pilots called the F-4 the "Rhino" for a reason. Laughing

Marginal armor content: The F-4 was built about as solid as a tank!

David
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:18 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

The "pure-fighter" quote came from the Friday, 17 February USA Today article on page 2A, not me. That particular quote came from Adm. William Fallon, the U.S. Pacific Commander and a former F14 weapons officer, (maybe he's biased). I don't know anything about F-8's. I wasn't aware that the Navy never had guns installed on their F-4 Phantoms. Seems like stupidity to me. I feel there will always be a need for a gun system on a jet for one reason or another.
I apologize now for the "marginal Armor content", I love jets and have a special fondness for F-105 Thunderchiefs (Thuds) as well as the F-100 Super Sabre, F-4 Phantom, and A-7 Corsair. WWII would be almost every plane the US built. Always wanted to be a pilot but my mild color blindness nix'd that.
But back to what started this thread, losses to U.S. equipment overseas. I was aware of the Vietnam helicopter losses through the research I've done on Hueys. This was merely an "informational" piece to share what I've read in Army Times. I'm just kind of amazed at the numbers, not so much the actual vehicle/aircraft losses themselves, but the dollar amounts for the losses. Of course the human losses outweigh everything, but the dollar costs are stagering. In my research, I have found an M47 cost $129,000 to produce, an M60 cost $1,291,865, and an M1A2 costs 4.3 Million. See the following site for M1 info; www.globalsecurity.org.../lima.htm. Why it costs 7 million to upgrade a 4.3 million dollar tank, I don't know. I hope this clears things up.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:27 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
In my research, I have found an M47 cost $129,000 to produce, an M60 cost $1,291,865


Jeff,
I'm surprized at the figure for an M60. It was not my (or our, then) impression that the cost was even half that figure (at least up through the M60A1......A3's with all the goodies maybe....).
Can we get more than one source for the cost of, say, an M60A1 ~1970? I have doubts about the million-plus cost for the first two generations of 60's.

aha!...got it now...that price was for the latest/greatest M60A3 version:


www.fas.org/man/dod-10...-m60a3.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

Yeah, I was researching M60A3's because the 3- M60's at Ft Irwin are all A3 models. The $1.291,865 price is from the "Army Master Data File Acquisition" listing. How acurate the cost is I do not know. You get what you pay for. At 4.3 Million dollars, It would be my hope that as an M1 track commander, that the 4.3 mill went towards protecting me and my crew from a 105mm buried in the ground, not just towards a computer system that drains my battery.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:51 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Jinx
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?


Hi Jinx! Hi Folks!

The cost of a new tank would possible be far more. There is NO plant, with skilled workers present, that can build new tanks.

You would have to find skilled workers, possible train some of them, check out all the equipment that was placed in storage (that is if any of it was saved), service and repair all of it as needed before restarting production. So less you are planning on building 10,000+ tanks, the restarting process cost would make 7 million per vehicle look cheap.

You have to remember that we didn't need the old AFV plants to make steel vehicles because all FCS vehicles will be made out of sci-fi composits. I think we are lucky that we still have plants that can do repairs and upgrades to old and damaged hulls.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Jinx
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?

Also remember that most of the new tanks were built back in the 80's with 105's. I think there have been at least two generations of armor since then as well as considerably more advanced electronics. So yes they are more expensive but they are also conciderably more capable.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum