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Small arms question...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:05 pm
Post subject: Small arms question...

[img][/img]
My son Jeffrey just posted this on the Officers Club, (the "wingy-thingy" DG) as a quiz to identify the aircraft. I am curious as to the rifle on the mans back. The picture was taken in 1956, and the "aircraft" is hanging in the Fort Eustis museum currently. Any ideas as to this weapons make/caliber.
As a side note, I will be flying to Ft Eustis ("Useless" as many of you call it) on March 22nd for my re-class training to 88N, Transportation Management Coordinator, (I'll miss the Mortars!). I'm sure it will put a serious crimp in my posting on here but I will be snapping pictures and writing serial numbers as fast as I can and will post them here as soon as possible. Once I graduate AIT, (last time I did that it was 1982) I will return to Ft Irwin and clear here to head to Fort Hood where I was from 1998-2001. I will try to volunteer at the museum there as well and any requests for info and pictures will be met as soon as I can. I'm esspecially looking forward to meeting another legendary 11th ACR trooper, in Roy Lingle. I hope to be able to show Roy, Ft Hood as I did Doug, Ft Irwin.

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Jinx
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

Question. Is the cylindrical object immediately behind the soldier's shoulder (try saying that five times really fast) part of the rifle, or is it something in front of the rifle? It doesn't look like it is perfectely aligned with the barrel to me.

I have been staring at this thing for quite a long time. The only things that have come to my mind so far are some variant of an FN-FAL/SLR or (very unlikely) an old Johnson.

My eyes are crossed, now, so i think it's time for bed.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

Hi Folks!

Not real sure on this, but from what little I can see of the weapon above the canteen and below the tube item makes me think it MIGHT be a BAR with the bipod removed and possible a blank firing adapter mounted.

The 1956 makes me think it is to soon for the M14 rifle and that sure doesn't look like a M1903 Springfield (still used as a sniper rifle) or a M1 Grand. Shocked

As for the tube item, possible a flashlight? Confused

I remember that back pack with tent roll. That was what the Marines were using during my four years (1964-1968). Evil or Very Mad

My 2 cents worth of guessing.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:23 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

I'm thinking BAR also, hard to tell.

Several improved versions of this kind of contraption were built..and abandoned after they came to realize the issues of:
conspicuity...the operator was a huge vulnerable target with no defenses while operating it.
recoil...anytimg the operator fired a weapon, it upset the craft terribly...I've seen film of the improved ducted fan version of this and it's all the guy can do to get off a shot while grabbing for the bars and trying to keep the thing stable afterwards.

In the optimism of the fifties', we thought we could do anything. Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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binder001
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:38 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

Jeff,

I'll bet dollars to donuts that it's a T48. It's not commonly appreciated that the US tested the famous Belgian FN FAL, which it designated as T48. This testing was done alongside the various Sprigfield Arsenal test rifles that carried US rifle evolution from M1 to M14. One report said that the T48 was found technically superior to the T44 (early M14), but it was squashed because of "NIH" (Not Invented Here).

Gary
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:41 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

- Tumbleweed
If that guy fell off he'd be in very bad shape! Sad


This, I believe, is the De Lackner DH-5 Aerocycle....a dangerous forerunner to the equally ill-conceived, but less lethal Hiller VZ-1 Pawnee. There is an nice webpage on all the "flying platforms" with some history here:

www.vectorsite.net/avplatfm.html

On a side note, I've seen film of the Hiller versions...it was all the operator could do to get off a single shot without upsetting the craft from the recoil of an M14 and then having to grab for the bars to regain control. Any movement at all upset the vehicle and it required constant attention to maintain hover or stable flight. And of course, you present quite a target to the enemy with no abilty to return fire. Excellent.

Those of you into flight simming know of about "Unreal Aviation" over at Hovercontrol and the downloadable model of one of these things, along with jetpacks and the like. It's free, and has flight characteristics not (unsurprizingly) like the Bell 206 as it's flight model.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:49 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

"If that guy fell off he'd be in very bad shape! "

Even if a strap came loose and hung down it would be disasterous!! If you did fire while it was running what would happen to the spent brass? Can you guess what would happen when it fell down into the blades? no telling what direction it would go in.

I also just noticed the 'platform' has a civilian registration number on the vertical gas tank. So maybe the Army was doing a 'fly before buy' program.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:55 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

- SFC_Jeff_Button

As a side note, I will be flying to Ft Eustis ("Useless" as many of you call it) on March 22nd for my re-class training to 88N, Transportation Management Coordinator, (I'll miss the Mortars!). I'm sure it will put a serious crimp in my posting on here but I will be snapping pictures and writing serial numbers as fast as I can and will post them here as soon as possible.


Jeff, how long will you be at Eustis? You know, the Ordnance Museum at APG is just a "short" 4 hour drive away from Eustis Wink

At least its a lot closer than from Irwin or Hood...

Neil
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:02 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

I already suggested that to him Smile

Jeff I'll pop you an email with contact info. If you can get up to the DC area, We'll take it from there some weekend.

There will probably be PCs somehere on post that you can get to the internet from to keep up with the group, you'll probably have plenty of time on your hands (I know I did when I crosstrained to computers back in '82 at Keesler AFB)

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David_Reasoner
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:13 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

The visible portions of the receiver and barrel look more like FN than BAR, so I would have to agree with Gary that it is probably a T48. The time frame would be correct for it as well.

David
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C_Sherman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:19 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

Could the rifle be an M1 (or an M14) with a rifle grenade adapter on the end, and a rifle grenade strapped to the side? Just my thought.

C

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piney
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:55 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

99 % certain that it's a T-48, produced by H7R for trials against the eventual M-14. all the visibe features match the photo


HTH

Jeff Lewis
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David_Reasoner
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:09 am
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

- C_Sherman
Could the rifle be an M1 (or an M14) with a rifle grenade adapter on the end, and a rifle grenade strapped to the side? Just my thought.

C


Ummm, no gas tube visible under the barrel like on an M1 or M14.

David
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

Hi Folks!

I must agree it is clearly NOT a M-1 or M-14. I also agree it is NOT a BAR either now. Remember, I said I was not sure and it 'might' be Confused . The barrel did look a bit off Confused and the end of the butt stock didn't look right Confused either. I was thinking only US weapons. Guess I was stuck in NIH mode of the 1950s. Evil or Very Mad

The photo of the T-48 does look a lot more like the weapon in the whirly bird photo.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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Cloudy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Small arms question...

- piney
99 % certain that it's a T-48, produced by H7R for trials against the eventual M-14. all the visibe features match the photo


HTH

Jeff Lewis


Hello all!

First post here and I believe that you are absolutely correct. The grooved forends match exactly and it's just an optical trick that makes the handguard look much larger than the museum version. I think that the museum example may be missing the circular cap/band under the front sight.

Alan
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