±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 635
Total: 635
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Photo Gallery
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Home
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Photo Gallery
09: Photo Gallery
10: Community Forums
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Your Account
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Home
34: Home
35: Photo Gallery
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Home
39: Community Forums
40: Member Screenshots
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: Photo Gallery
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Community Forums
50: Downloads
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Downloads
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Downloads
66: CPGlang
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: CPGlang
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Statistics
84: Community Forums
85: Photo Gallery
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Photo Gallery
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Home
99: Photo Gallery
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Member Screenshots
105: Home
106: Photo Gallery
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: CPGlang
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Photo Gallery
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Community Forums
128: Photo Gallery
129: Community Forums
130: Downloads
131: Downloads
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Photo Gallery
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Photo Gallery
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: CPGlang
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: News Archive
148: Community Forums
149: Your Account
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: CPGlang
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: Downloads
162: Photo Gallery
163: Photo Gallery
164: Community Forums
165: Home
166: Downloads
167: Member Screenshots
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Your Account
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: News Archive
178: Downloads
179: Your Account
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Home
184: Photo Gallery
185: Community Forums
186: Photo Gallery
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Member Screenshots
209: Photo Gallery
210: News
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: News Archive
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: CPGlang
225: Community Forums
226: Your Account
227: Community Forums
228: Downloads
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Community Forums
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Your Account
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Home
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Downloads
251: Downloads
252: Community Forums
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Photo Gallery
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Home
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: News Archive
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Member Screenshots
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: News
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Member Screenshots
305: Community Forums
306: CPGlang
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: News Archive
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Member Screenshots
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Photo Gallery
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Community Forums
334: Photo Gallery
335: Your Account
336: Photo Gallery
337: Your Account
338: Photo Gallery
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Photo Gallery
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Photo Gallery
352: Community Forums
353: Member Screenshots
354: News Archive
355: Photo Gallery
356: Member Screenshots
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Photo Gallery
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Photo Gallery
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Statistics
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Photo Gallery
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Photo Gallery
395: Home
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Photo Gallery
400: Downloads
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: News Archive
404: Community Forums
405: Photo Gallery
406: Community Forums
407: Photo Gallery
408: CPGlang
409: Home
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Downloads
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Home
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Downloads
426: Community Forums
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: CPGlang
430: Your Account
431: Home
432: Photo Gallery
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Photo Gallery
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Community Forums
444: Downloads
445: Community Forums
446: News
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Home
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Home
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Photo Gallery
466: Photo Gallery
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Search
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Home
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Home
489: Downloads
490: Community Forums
491: Home
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Photo Gallery
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Photo Gallery
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Photo Gallery
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Home
515: Home
516: Community Forums
517: Home
518: Downloads
519: Home
520: Photo Gallery
521: Photo Gallery
522: Home
523: Photo Gallery
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Home
531: CPGlang
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Home
536: Community Forums
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Downloads
542: Downloads
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Downloads
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Photo Gallery
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Home
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Home
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Home
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Photo Gallery
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Photo Gallery
581: Photo Gallery
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Home
586: Community Forums
587: Your Account
588: Photo Gallery
589: Community Forums
590: Home
591: Home
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Search
600: Community Forums
601: News
602: Community Forums
603: Home
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Photo Gallery
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Home
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Home
621: Home
622: Your Account
623: Statistics
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Photo Gallery
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Home
635: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Assuming that is an APFSDS projectile on the far left, is the short cartridge the one that launches it? Is there anything that goes in between the two when they are loaded into the breech?
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Just a guess but I would assume they rechambered the tank mounted 120mm gun to use a shorter case than the 120mm AA gun. This would be desirable because of the cramped space in a tank turret. With newer more poereful propellent a shorter case could still provide a high MV.

Is the round on the left a HEAT round? I don't think APFSDS was around when the 120mm gunned M103 was in service was it? The shape of the front end of the round looks like a HEAT round with the stand off nose that was common in that era. I know it is desirable for a HEAT round not to spin so I would guess that the fins were ther to stabilize the round instead of using the rifling in the gun barrel

again the above is just my guess as to what and why.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:59 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

As bsmart said, the projectile to the far left is a HEAT round with a stand-off probe. That's what HEAT rounds have looked like for about 40 years now - even Russian rounds!
An explanation for the shorter cartridge case may be that the HEAT round used a smaller charge than the AP. They usually do. The Russian 125mm gun with its split rounds gets around that problem by packing a portion of the propellant with the APFSDS round itself, so both the HEAT and AP can share the same charge. The dramatically different case size for the 120mm may have been so the loader couldn't accidentally mistake a big AP charge for the HEAT charge. For all I know firing a HEAT round with a full AP charge may have been dangerous! ...Just a guess on my part.


Last edited by mike_Duplessis on Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:00 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Oops, my error. That is a HEAT round and not an APFSDS. (Hanging head)

I still am having trouble picturing how this works when separately loaded. Does the loader ram in the HEAT round first, then ram in the cartridge afterward? It doesn't seem as if it would be easy to ram in the projectile by hand, what with the fins and all. Any help with that?
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

- Jinx
Oops, my error. That is a HEAT round and not an APFSDS. (Hanging head)

I still am having trouble picturing how this works when separately loaded. Does the loader ram in the HEAT round first, then ram in the cartridge afterward? It doesn't seem as if it would be easy to ram in the projectile by hand, what with the fins and all. Any help with that?


Its all one piece ammo.

The image has the rounds seperated to show the actual projectiles size.

The loader just removes the round from the rack swings it around (or flips the round) and slams it in the chamber. Simple process.

As for interior space, I've been in an M103 on several occasions. I felt it was hugely 'roomie' as compared to the Abrams.

The TCs position being an amazing sub-area in the rear of the turret. I was envious of all the places to 'stow' personal convience items (ie 'munchies' and the such...) LOTTA ROOM!!

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

The 120mm ammo thing is confusing because some guns (the oscillating turret designs) used one-piece rounds and some used split rounds for the same gun type. The reason why the rounds were split were partially to do with unweildy length, but also to do with their weight. Load 8 or 9 70+ pound one piece AP rounds in quick succession and you'll be ready to lie down for a nap! It seems round weight doesn't usually exceed 50 lbs. if they're going to be manually loaded (artillery doesn't count).

Maybe Marine M103s were different and used the 1-piece rounds because jar-heads are just more manly than the rest of us. Wink

I'd swear that either Conqueror or M103 (or maybe just the prototype) used two loaders in an efort to speed up ROF. But I can't recall which it was.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:53 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Hi Folks!

Don't forgot, the M-103 with all it's room had TWO loaders.

Where is OldTop when we need him. He would know what type of ammo the M-103 used.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:26 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

I haven't 'talked' him since the switch over...

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
tankmodeler
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Ontario
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

The 103 used two-piece ammo for all rounds and had two loaders in the monsterous turret. The Conq was the same as it useed the same gun.

I must say I find it strange that the HEAT round had a shorter case. I know the charge in the case was smaller because the velocity of the HEAT round doesn't affect it's penetration, but most breech designs seal the breech from the propellant gasses by the mouth of the case expanding under the pressure and sealing at the forward lip of the case. If that lip is in two places, you have to make bloody sure that two places in the breech are machined precisely enough to do the job and that the wear and tear of normal firing doesn't degrade that second location so that gasses bypass the block and get back into the turret. The shorter case would also mean that the normal breech surface would be exposed to the gasses from the shorter HEAT casing. Very bad for the metal and for the abilitty to seal the breech.

Makes no sense. I'm not sure that it could be done for an operational vehicle.

Are we sure the casing hasn't been cut down and then mounted inthe display? Sometimes displays are made up from parts laying around or refurbished from older displays and are not necessarily totally accurate. Just a thought.

Paul Roberts

_________________
Paul Roberts
President
Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:41 am
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

I was at Aberdeen today and another volunteer who is more interested in ammunition than tanks or small arms was there (He is a professional EOD guy). I asked him if he knew anything about this but couldn't bring up a computer where we were. He said he had recently found out about the difference in the two 120mm cases and there is a reason. He is going to dig out the information on it and leave it at the museum for me. When I get the information (It may be a few weeks) I'll pass it on.

Where was the display?

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks!

Don't forgot, the M-103 with all it's room had TWO loaders.

Where is OldTop when we need him. He would know what type of ammo the M-103 used.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile


You got me curious, so I searched the old forum and sent "oletop" an email just today...lessee' what happens....
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

I finally dug out my copy of Hunnicutt's "FIREPOWER" (yes, I own a rare precious edition of FIREPOWER) and here's what I found on the rounds:

The complete AP-T M358 (two piece) round weighted a hefty 107 pounds. The shot alone weighed 50.85 pounds. AP and training shells used the propelling charge M46, which used a case 34.7" long (the shot was 18.76" long, making the total round a bit under 4 1/2 feet long").

The HE and WP shells used propelling charge T21E1, which also had a case 34.7" long.

The HEAT round M469 pictured above didn't come about til the Marine upgrade of the M103 in the early 60s. The HEAT shell was 29 inches long. The propelling chage that went with it was just 26.35" long. Special round stowage had to be installed for these odd-size rounds.

To show the difference between the long and short propelling charges, the AP-T M348 round had a muzzle energy of 4,318 foot-tons. The HEAT shell's muzzle energy was just half that at 2,184 foot-tons.
Back to top
View user's profile
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

In comparison, does anybody know right off the weights of the various rounds for the 120mm Rheinmetall gun in the Abrams and Leopard 2?
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

I want to say the current 120mm gun rounds weigh about 50 pounds more-or-less. The benefit of not using an old-fashioned solid AP shot or a brass case. Someone who knows better should confirm or deny this, though.
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Mike

120mm HEAT(M830:HEAT-MP-T) 53.4 lbs
120mm SABOT(M829A1: APFSDS-T) 46.22 lbs

As referenced from 'M1 Abrams at War' by Michael Green

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum