±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 240
Total: 240
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: News Archive
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Home
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Statistics
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: News Archive
14: Community Forums
15: Downloads
16: Home
17: Downloads
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Member Screenshots
21: Downloads
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: News
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Photo Gallery
31: Photo Gallery
32: Photo Gallery
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: News Archive
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Home
46: Home
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Photo Gallery
51: Home
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: News
57: Photo Gallery
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Photo Gallery
74: Photo Gallery
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Downloads
79: Community Forums
80: Photo Gallery
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Statistics
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Photo Gallery
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Photo Gallery
100: Home
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: Photo Gallery
105: Photo Gallery
106: Home
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: News Archive
111: Downloads
112: Community Forums
113: Member Screenshots
114: Community Forums
115: Photo Gallery
116: Photo Gallery
117: Photo Gallery
118: Photo Gallery
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Home
122: Downloads
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Photo Gallery
126: Photo Gallery
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Downloads
131: Photo Gallery
132: Downloads
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Photo Gallery
139: Community Forums
140: Photo Gallery
141: Community Forums
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Downloads
145: News
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Home
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: Photo Gallery
161: Photo Gallery
162: Photo Gallery
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Photo Gallery
166: Photo Gallery
167: Photo Gallery
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Home
173: Photo Gallery
174: Photo Gallery
175: CPGlang
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Photo Gallery
183: Photo Gallery
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Downloads
194: Photo Gallery
195: Photo Gallery
196: Home
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Downloads
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: CPGlang
204: Home
205: Community Forums
206: Photo Gallery
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Photo Gallery
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Home
215: Photo Gallery
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Photo Gallery
219: Community Forums
220: Downloads
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Member Screenshots
225: Member Screenshots
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Photo Gallery
236: Home
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Photo Gallery
240: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:22 am
Post subject: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

Hi Folks!

What to read something outlandish? Check out this DOD PDF report with about 245 pages at:

"Iraqi Perspectives Project, A View of Operation Iraqi Freedom from Saddam's Senior Leadership".

www.jfcom.mil/newslink...06/ipp.pdf

If you think US intell on Iraq was out in left field, you need to read that report. Some how the SF teams working in the western desert of Iraq cause (my guess based on reading of the report) intell reports that reached Saddam Hussein reporting sightings of US Armor attacking out of Jordan. A few days later, Mr. H. got the idea that three IDF armored divisions with an airborne division plus the US 4th Division was about to attack through Jordan into western Iraq.

You will also learn that the US has a super secret. It must be a super secret because we all here at AFV News didn't know about it until today. CH-47s can AIRLIFT Abrams tanks! Don't believe me, read the report!

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:57 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

Thanks for the pointer. Right now I am reading 'Cobra II - The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq' It follows the process at the Pentagon/Centcom/ Third Army level. I'm about a third of the way through and it is getting to Colin Powell addressing the U.N. about WMD.

It looks like the two may compliment each other

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:49 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

When the Iraqi Minister of Outrageous Remarks was promanent on TV light-hearted souls saved his best quotes. I have one document that is 8 pages of silliness.

I also saved this assessment from stratfor.com and bears repeating of how the West was looking at Saddam looking at the West.

"If Hussein was certain that (1) the United States will launch a war and (2) that he will be defeated, that would be the circumstance under which he would consider exile. He still is not completely certain that the United States will attack -- or at least, that it will attack before the summer. He also is not certain that the United States would defeat him in a war. From where Hussein sits, the United States is afraid to take casualties. His view of history is that ever since Vietnam, the United States has waged its wars in such a way as to prevent or minimize casualties. When U.S. forces started taking casualties, as in Beirut or Somalia, they withdrew. In Afghanistan, the United States avoids casualties by staying close to its strongholds. Regardless of whether this perception is true, this is what Hussein -- and others -- believe about the United States.

Hussein believes he can inflict heavy casualties on the United States. He apparently thinks that using chemical weapons against U.S. forces during an advance on Baghdad, and forcing U.S. troops into house-to-house fighting in the city, will raise the number and fear of more casualties sufficiently that the United States will accept a U.N.-sponsored cease-fire. In his view, Iraqi forces are capable of achieving this. He may not be certain of it, but recall that Hussein is a risk-taker. The probability is high enough that he can inflict casualties and that the United States will retreat in the face of those casualties that he is willing to risk the war rather than accept exile."
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:43 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

thanks roy, i am going to check out that report.
never would have thought of the ch-47 airlifiting the abrams, an older skycrane maybe...

saddam--must be nice to live in his world. um, he has some valid thoughts but i dont think they are really relevent to his own situation. he seems to suffer from real memory loss. he took a blood bath fighting iran, he has gotten stomped by the coalition in 1991, bombed often in the interum to the second gulf war. and then he thought that the IDF was going to get involved, a joint u.s./israeli invasion! and who would be taking casaulities in this one??? plus, for israel to cross her borders, the situation is no longer about iraq/wmd's, it would be the apocalypse in the mid east..
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:58 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

- SHAWN
thanks roy, i am going to check out that report.
never would have thought of the ch-47 airlifiting the abrams, an older skycrane maybe...



Don't waste your time, Shawn...A CH-54 Tarhe (or any subsequent variant now that Erickson has the airframe) couldn't lift even half the weight of an Abrams. A CH-47 (in the Vietnam era) could only lift an M113 if it was offloaded of all stowage, ammo and gunsheld armor (this has been improved upon considerably these days). I watched this process at FSB Fiddler's Green once and the Chinook struggled...and puckered up those blades like a badminton birdie (and rotor wash threw rocks nearly the size of your fist). There are pics of a CH-54 lifting a Sheridan around, and that would have been pretty much the max.
Nothing the wings turn around on will pick up an Abrams...
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:31 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

- SHAWN

saddam--must be nice to live in his world.


Trying to live in a world of his own making is how he ended up in jail cell.
When you surround yourself with YES people and you are known for having people killed who do not support your view of things, well.....

- SHAWN

he seems to suffer from real memory loss. he took a blood bath fighting iran, he has gotten stomped by the coalition in 1991, bombed often in the interum to the second gulf war.


Shawn, it's NOT a case of MEMORY LOSS. It's a point of view problem. From your point, yes. But that report explains his point of view and sence he was still in charge, HE DIDN'T take a blood bath fighting Iran and HE DIDN'T get stomped on in 1991.

The US pulled out of Vietnam after lossing 58,000 troops.
Iraq losted 51,000 troops during one battle with Iran.

From his point of view, the US was weak because we gave up.
Iraq was strong because HE WAS STILL IN CHARGE.

One of the hardest things for one human to do is place themself inside the mine of another and under stand that person's point of view of something.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:51 pm
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

that is so true roy. they always say to know your opponent, would i be wrong in saying that you may be able to know your opponent but you may not always be able to understand him? (sometimes that can be the most important-- understanding)
seems like it is like that is all wars.
shawn

roy, doug, et al.
what is that means of deploying vehicles by airdrop, using the skid out the back of the aircraft, cant remember the initials for it...? has anyone worked with that type of deployment? how is the vehicle secured, etc. how is the impact absorbed? your are dropping very low to the deck but still how does the vehicle take it? the sheridan/track-- how soon from hitting the ground are you up and running again?
shawn
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:50 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

- SHAWN

roy, doug, et al.
what is that means of deploying vehicles by airdrop, using the skid out the back of the aircraft, cant remember the initials for it...? has anyone worked with that type of deployment? how is the vehicle secured, etc. how is the impact absorbed? your are dropping very low to the deck but still how does the vehicle take it? the sheridan/track-- how soon from hitting the ground are you up and running again?
shawn


Shawn,
I believe you're referring to Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES). The vehicle is palletized and prepped more-or-less as for parachute drop. I don't think it's ever been done in combat, and considerable time is required to get up and running again. Hour or two at least, I'd guess. It's a rough way to go, and it's dangerous...for anyone on the ground, and sometimes for the aircraft. (A demo of this procedure went horribly wrong 15 years or so ago, at Bragg, I think, when the C-130 touched down hard, broke it's back, and killed the aircrew in front of the reviewing stand).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
RKlaus
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 28, 2006
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:33 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

Hi,
Looks like I finaly made the jump from the old board. I had a lot of trouble getting this board to let me in.
It is indeed LAPES that you are talking about. Sporty procedure. I did one of the last Sheridan LAPES drops at Pope before the Sheridan went away. The drop is supposed to be made from 5 to 10 feet wheel height, with the deck 4 feet higher. We always tried for the lower end of this at 5 feet, or a bit lower. As the load slides back the tail drops, so the pallet actually doesn't fall too far. The big danger to the Sheridan was not the drop, but the danger that the leading edge of the pallet would dig in and the load tumble.
From the C-130 point of view the big problem was that 42,000 lbs (45,000 for the Sheridan on waivers) would shift the CG well aft as it slid back. The pilot would counter with nose down elevator to compensate. Then the tank would fall off the back of the ramp, and instantly your CG was back to normal. If the pilot didn't anticipate the shift perfectly and bring the elevator back up you'd bounce the nose wheeel Very embarrasing.
Good times!

"If it was easy they'd get civilians to do it."

Robert Klaus
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:23 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

thanks guys,

doug-- did you ever take part in any LAPES exercises or would that be after your time?

robert-- you were aircrew on the C-130?
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
RKlaus
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 28, 2006
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:30 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

Shawn,
Flight Engineer on C-130E with the 40th and 2nd Airlift Squadrons at Pope. It was a great experience, I'm just sorry I'm to old to still be at it.

Robert
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:44 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

- SHAWN
thanks guys,

doug-- did you ever take part in any LAPES exercises or would that be after your time?

robert-- you were aircrew on the C-130?


Shawn,
Nope, never was...and wouldn't have been. Crews would have been transported separately, of course...either already being on the ground or inserted or dropped in before/after the fact. LAPES'ing is an Air Force gig and we would have just been the addressees. It's an interesting capability to have, but as a practical matter, I can't envision armor being really delivered this way or by parachute in 99.9% of combat operations. Better to secure or create a landing field and drive off....(I'm thinking of calling this novel concept "Air-Mech Strike" Laughing )
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:43 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

- Doug_Kibbey
- SHAWN
thanks guys,

doug-- did you ever take part in any LAPES exercises or would that be after your time?

robert-- you were aircrew on the C-130?


Shawn,
Nope, never was...and wouldn't have been. Crews would have been transported separately, of course...either already being on the ground or inserted or dropped in before/after the fact. LAPES'ing is an Air Force gig and we would have just been the addressees. It's an interesting capability to have, but as a practical matter, I can't envision armor being really delivered this way or by parachute in 99.9% of combat operations. Better to secure or create a landing field and drive off....(I'm thinking of calling this novel concept "Air-Mech Strike" lol )
And of course the primary vehicle used for this 'Air-Mech Strike' would be named after an airborne hero



I'm thinking of


General Matthew Ridgway

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:44 am
Post subject: Re: U.S. Armor was attacking into Iraq from Jordan?

- bsmart
- Doug_Kibbey
- SHAWN
thanks guys,

doug-- did you ever take part in any LAPES exercises or would that be after your time?

robert-- you were aircrew on the C-130?


Shawn,
Nope, never was...and wouldn't have been. Crews would have been transported separately, of course...either already being on the ground or inserted or dropped in before/after the fact. LAPES'ing is an Air Force gig and we would have just been the addressees. It's an interesting capability to have, but as a practical matter, I can't envision armor being really delivered this way or by parachute in 99.9% of combat operations. Better to secure or create a landing field and drive off....(I'm thinking of calling this novel concept "Air-Mech Strike" lol )
And of course the primary vehicle used for this 'Air-Mech Strike' would be named after an airborne hero



I'm thinking of


General Matthew Ridgway
What - Did you think I was going to say GAVIN

Smile

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum