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AFVID
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: AFVID

Hi Bob! Hi Folks!

- bsmart

I wondered if #4 was an Israeli M-60A1.


Look at the front bottom edge of the turret. The 'A1' type turret looks a bit like a forward pointed wedge. The M-60(A0) used a turret that look a lot like an M-48. The bottom edges of those two turrets line up with the outside edge of the hull turret race area. Not counting the over hang of the bustle rack area at the rear.

Also the gun mantles. On the M-60A1, looking at the side, the mantle has a very noticeable wedge shape to it between the top and the bottom edges. While the mantle on the M-60(A0) is almost flat with a small bit of a ball shape. Hope that makes sense.

Also on the M-48/M-60(A0) type turrets, the storage rack for the searchlight is mounted on the ventilator cover which is on the loader's side of the turret at the rear. On the M-60A1 turrets, the ventilator cover with the storage rack for the searchlight in on the TC's side of the turret.

- bsmart

Other than that who am I to question our scout Smile


Hey now! What good are my 'alertness checks' if you DON'T question this very old scout's spot reports?

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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General G.S. Patton Jr.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:16 am
Post subject: Re: AFVID

I wasn't questioning whether it was an A0 or an A1. I was wondering if it was a picture of a Israeli operational casualty (My other likely possibility would be a range target)

Actually I on #4 I'm not sure I see the bottom front of the turret that well. It looks like there is 'a puff of smoke' that sort of obscures that area but it looks to me like it is an elongated turret. #7 on the otherhand looks very much like an M-48 type turret with the flatter mantlet and turret ring arrangement you mentioned (as well as having the cupola removed and a ring mount .50 mounted)

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Sabot
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:14 am
Post subject: Re: AFVID

#7 is an initial batch M60 as opposed to a production M60. The turret on the initial batch was basically an upgunned M48 turret. Notice the placement of the lifting rings. There is a ring just below and behind the loader's hatch and would have a corresponding lifting ring on the commander's side. The third ring would be on the turret roof just behind the top of the mantlet. These identify it as originally an M48 turret.

A production M60 had a change in the lifting ring locations (among other changes). The forward liting rings were along the front slope of the turret just to the left and right of the mantlet with the third ring located on the center of the turret roof to the rear of the commander's cupola and loader's hatch. Basically the same spots they are on the M60A1 and M60A3.

I think the majority of the initial batch were rushed to Israel to fight the latest Soviet tanks (T-55) that equipped the Arab armies.

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C_Sherman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:27 pm
Post subject: Re: AFVID

- bsmart

Actually I on #4 I'm not sure I see the bottom front of the turret that well. It looks like there is 'a puff of smoke' that sort of obscures that area but it looks to me like it is an elongated turret.


#4 is definitely an A1. The turret length appears to be between 1/2 and 2/3 the length of the hull, rather than the 1/3 of the 'turtles' (M60A0). It looks to me like the negative was flopped, though. The cupola appears to be on the near side, which is reversed from the reality that I live in.

That Israeli M60 threw me. I could see the hull was clearly an M60 but the turret just didn't look right, even for a 'turtle'. The M48 turret explains it.

Neat stuff, Don.

C

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will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
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Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:36 pm
Post subject: Re: AFVID

- C_Sherman
It looks to me like the negative was flopped, though. The cupola appears to be on the near side, which is reversed from the reality that I live in.

C


Actually that is perhaps my fault. I scanned these from the original slides and I may have that one reversed.

Sorting thru 15 trays of slides can drive you bug-eyed... Shocked

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: AFVID

I "aquired" a box with hundreds of slides about 20 years ago, of aircraft from around the world. I have never gone through them but should. Officers Club would probably be very interested. I knew the M60A2 but a number of the rest threw me. I'm sure Doug knew them easy enough though.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:39 pm
Post subject: Re: AFVID

There are multi-view slides of just about all 'common' vehicles from 10-15 years ago.

I tried to pick out some of the interesting ones. Had to put them away for awhile, to get some other things done.

I'll dig into them when times get slow.

On another note, I found something I thought you'd like:

Thought%20this%20was%20a%20bit%20bizarre:

I found these in a 1951 Research and Development Board Report.

Don

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:45 pm
Post subject: Re: AFVID

- Dontos
Thought this was a bit bizarre:





"You wounded settle down back there or I'll put another few rounds of .30 cal. into all of you!"
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Sabot
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: AFVID

- C_Sherman

That Israeli M60 threw me. I could see the hull was clearly an M60 but the turret just didn't look right, even for a 'turtle'. The M48 turret explains it.

Neat stuff, Don.

C
AFV Club does a similar, but updated variant. It is a Taiwanese M48H. This is basically an M60 hull with an M48 turret that is upgunned with a 105mm and the fire control, crosswind sensor and TTS of an M60A3. Real strange looking variant, especially the ones with reactive armor.

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Jinx
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:10 pm
Post subject: Re: AFVID

- Roy_A_Lingle
Next five tanks, the 'V' shaped splash board would make them T-72s, Iraqi, 120mm



Not meaning to doubt the Scout.....but the reason i didn't say "T-72" was because i thought the turrets were too tall. I had only seen the "V-thingy" on T-64s, T-72s, T-80s and T-90s.....but i thought maybe they were retrofitted to the older tank.....? Anyway, i got three right, so i'm not overly ashamed by that. (I shouldn't have missed the Chieftan, though.)
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:26 pm
Post subject: Re: AFVID

More M60 discussion, I love it.
About picture #4, it’s an A1, that’s been settled. Looks like a staged shot with pyrotechnics set off behind it. Heat round wouldn’t make a mushroom cloud and if it was a secondary explosion the cupola would fly off. I think it was 10 or 12 long Hex head bolts that held it in. Besides, where’s all the crews gear? Tank looks pretty neat for combat. Another quick way to tell it’s not a straight 60 is the hull. It has 2 shocks in the front and one to the rear. The straight 60 only had one up front and the #1 support roller was further back. Also the four hull heavy lifting eyes didn’t come out until after straight M60 production ceased.
Picture #7 is a straight 60 with a 60 turret, not 48. The lifting eyes RobG mentions are located the same as the 48’s but the turret is still different. The first 360 M60’s that rolled of the assembly line at Newark Delaware did have a single eye up front and two to the back. But the turret still was enlarged and squared off like later models with the two eyes up front. Also, some later made tanks would have the single eye up front too. It just depended on who made the turret.
Here is serial number 95, notice the lifting eyes are like a 48’s but the turret is square.
%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20Here%20is%20Detroit%20made%20serial%20number%20504%20with%20two%20lifting%20eyes%20forward. %20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20Here%20is%20serial%20number%20723,%20it%20has%20the%20lifting%20eyes%20like%20an%20M48.

I have more pictures of other tanks wih the 48 lifting eye layout up to serial number 1332.

The M60 that Taiwan has is also called the CM-11. They purchased M60 hulls from the US and mounted heavily modified 48 turrets on them. Easy way to differentiate them from straight 60’s is that the hulls are later models with 3 shocks. They are strange beasts to look at with thermal shrouds and all.

Having fun in Wisconsin,
Joe D
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Jens_O_Mehner
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Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:12 am
Post subject: Re: AFVID

About picture #4: I don't think we're looking at a hit from a tank gun, but rather at a missile hit, IIRC I've seen the pic before in conjunction with the AGM "Maverick" tests.

Cheers,

Jens O.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:02 am
Post subject: Re: AFVID

When I look at #4 I see 4 bursts taking place. From Left to right there is the smoke residue over the front fendor that somewhat obscures the front of the turret. The second is the primary hit that you notice that appears to be at the top of the turret. The last two are dark 'fragment clouds' over the rear of the tank.

I first thought it might be a weapons test but something doesn't seem 'right' for that context. The angle, the quality, etc. just seem more in keeping with an unplanned shot, possibly a still from a video clip.

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:19 am
Post subject: Re: AFVID

Could be, I'd expect a much larger fireball upon initial impact. There'd be a lot more damage too. Shape charges (Hellfire, Maverick etc.) generally make a circular fireball and go away. That mushroom cloud type blast looks like a cheesy special effect. The angle of the picture could help hide a blast barrel behind it. The National Gaurd was always good for providing tanks for movies. Same with Spain. Who knows.

I attached a link (I hope) of the Hanscon AFB Paper showing an M60A3 used as a moving target. Granted it was hit with a 2000lb JDAM.

www.hanscom.af.mil/han.../index.htm

Joe D
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:19 am
Post subject: Re: AFVID

Hi Jinx! Hi Folks!

- Jinx
- Roy_A_Lingle
Next five tanks, the 'V' shaped splash board would make them T-72s, Iraqi, 120mm


Not meaning to doubt the Scout.....but the reason i didn't say "T-72" was because i thought the turrets were too tall. I had only seen the "V-thingy" on T-64s, T-72s, T-80s and T-90s.....but i thought maybe they were retrofitted to the older tank.....?


Point number one! I could be very wrong about those tanks being T-72s!

This is how I figure they are T-72s.

Lead APC has Iraqi markings, therefore tanks following should also be Iraqi.
T-64, only used by Soviet Forces in East Germany, never exported.
T-80, I maybe wrong, don't think any of those were sold to Iraq.
T-90, Again I maybe wrong, but I am SURE that those have not yet been sold to anyone outside Russia.

It's a S-2/G-2 call, base on above intell, those tanks must be T-72s.
In light of addational intell (facts) my spot report can be updated.

Just check out my responce to Bob's question about photo number four.
I wasn't even talking about that photo, I missed the "left turn at Albququerque" and got lost.

Follow up edit:
Found the following intell estimate on Iraq tanks prior to the start of OIF:
Type 69 II....2,000
T-62.............1,500
T-72 M1...........700
M-77(T-55).........60

So those vehicles with the 'V' should be Iraqi T-72M1s unless someone knows the M-77 version of the T-55 had that item added.

Spot report update x 2.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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