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Euro TUSK..............
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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buglerbilly
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Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:40 am
Post subject: Euro TUSK..............

Interestingly enough whilst TUSK seems to die from lack of funds, both Germany and France seem to be copying TUSK in their own way.

Firstly Germany with their Leopard 2 PSO (PSO = Peace Support Operations! Some0one had a sense of humour here, black humour but humour nevertheless! :mrgreen:)

%20%20
Jan.%2025,%202006%20 Urban%20Leopard%202%20Variant%20Planned%20 CHRISTOPHER%20F%20FOSS%20JDW%20Land%20Forces%20Contributing%20Editor%20Munich,%20Germany%20 A%20heavy%20armoured%20vehicle%20based%20on%20the%20Leopard%202%20main%20battle%20tank%20(MBT)%20but%20optimised%20for%20urban%20operations%20is%20being%20developed%20by%20Germany's%20Krauss-Maffei%20Wegmann%20(KMW).%20 Dubbed%20the%20Leopard%202%20Peace%20Support%20Operation%20(PSO)%20vehicle,%20a%20demonstrator%20prototype%20is%20expected%20to%20be%20shown%20in%20public%20for%20the%20first%20time%20in%20mid-2006.%20 The%20Leopard%202%20MBT's%20highest%20level%20of%20protection%20is%20over%20the%20frontal%20arc,%20with%20the%20emphasis%20on%20protection%20against%20armour-piercing%20fin-stabilised%20discarding-sabot%20(APFSDS)%20and%20high-explosive%20antitank%20(HEAT)%20attack.%20However,%20recent%20combat%20experience%20has%20shown%20that%20in%20urban%20operations%20the%20main%20threat%20to%20an%20MBT%20can%20come%20from%20a%20much%20wider%20range%20of%20angles%20in%20the%20form%20of%20mines,%20improvised%20explosive%20devices%20and%20direct-fire%20weapons,%20such%20as%20the%20widely%20deployed%20RPG-7%20rocket-propelled%20grenade%20launcher.%20 KMW%20has%20already%20developed%20and%20tested%20a%20new%20mine%20protection%20kit%20for%20the%20Leopard%202%20that%20is%20being%20installed%20in%20a%20batch%20of%20vehicles%20for%20Germany%20and%20Sweden%20and%20could%20also%20be%20fitted%20to%20the%20Leopard%202%20PSO.%20This%20provides%20a%20high%20level%20of%20protection%20against%20anti-tank%20mines%20and%20explosively%20formed%20penetrator-type%20ordnance.%20 While%20the%20ideal%20solution%20wouldbe%20to%20extend%20enhanced%20protection%20through%20a%20full%20360°,%20this%20is%20not%20possible%20without%20increasing%20the%20overall%20combat%20weight%20to%20an%20unacceptable%20level.%20 On%20the%20Leopard%202%20PSO,%20new%20advanced%20passive%20armour%20side-skirts%20will%20be%20fitted%20above%20the%20front%20five%20road%20wheels%20and%20extra%20turret%20side%20armour%20added%20that%20extends%20to%20the%20rear%20of%20the%20turret%20bustle.%20 The%20optics%20of%20the%20Leopard%202%20PSO%20will%20also%20be%20protected%20and%20an%20integrated%20command%20and%20control%20system%20fitted.%20The%20machine%20gun%20on%20the%20commander's%20cupola%20will%20be%20replaced%20by%20a%20KMW%20remote-controlled%20weapon%20station%20on%20the%20turret%20roof%20to%20the%20rear%20of%20the%20loader's%20hatch.%20This%20can%20be%20equipped%20with%20a%207.62%20mm%20or%2012.7%20mm%20machine%20gun%20or%20a%2040%20mm%20automatic%20grenade%20launcher.%20A%20searchlight%20will%20be%20mounted%20coax%20ially%20with%20the%20main%20
Model%20rear%20view.......... Model%20side%20view............. Secondly,%20GIAT%20has%20just%20announced%20the%20Leclerc%20AZUR%20(AZUR%20=%20Action%20en%20Zone%20URban)................
%20%20
05%20June%202006%20 Eurosatory:%20Giat%20heralds%20Leclerc%20MBT%20for%20urban%20operations%20 By%20Christopher%20F%20Foss%20Jane's%20Land%20Forces%20Contributing%20Editor%20 Satory,%20France%20 Giat%20Industries%20of%20France%20will%20unveil%20at%20Eurosatory%20a%20special%20version%20of%20its%20Leclerc%20main%20battle%20tank%20(MBT)%20optimised%20for%20urban%20operations.%20 Called%20AZUR%20(Action%20en%20Zone%20URban),%20the%20newly%20configured%20Leclerc%20has%20been%20developed%20by%20Giat%20Industries%20as%20a%20private%20venture,%20although%20the%20French%20Army%20has%20had%20some%20input%20into%20the%20development.%20According%20to%20Giat%20Industries,%20the%20French%20Army%20will%20evaluate%20the%20Leclerc%20AZUR%20from%20late%20in%202006.%20 For%20improved%20survivability%20the%20Leclerc%20AZUR%20has%20been%20fitted%20with%20an%20enhanced%20protection%20package%20that%20provides%20additional%20protection%20over%20the%20sides%20and%20rear%20of%20the%20vehicle.%20 New%20side%20skirts%20made%20of%20an%20advanced%20composite%20material%20cover%20the%20sides%20of%20the%20crew%20compartment,%20while%20bar%20armour%20has%20been%20fitted%20around%20the%20rear%20of%20the%20hull%20and%20turret%20to%20neutralise%20attacks%20from%20rocket-propelled%20grenades.%20There%20is%20also%20additional%20protection%20over%20the%20top%20rear%20engine%20decks%20against%20attack%20from%20petrol%20bombs.%20
Also,%20the%20Swiss%20even%20seen%20to%20have%20some%20of%20this%20Urban%20Warfare%20gear........Leopard%202%20modified%20by%20RUAG%20in%20Switzerland................ Interesting%20armoured%20and%20protected%20.50cal%20mounts%20which%20makes%20more%20sense%20than%20the%20plaethora%20of%20open-to-damage%20RWS%20one%20see's...........

How many of these actually make it into service is another matter, but the Germans seem to want to adapt at least a small portion of their Leo 2's to their PSO configuration.

Compliments to Panzerbaer, GIAT and my friend Dennis for various of the images................

Regards,

BUG
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Adrian_Wainer
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Joined: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: Euro TUSK..............

It would not surprize me if these enhanced Leopard 2 and LeClerc were put together with an eye to possible export opportunities to the People's Republic of China.

I will not make further comment on that issue, suffice to say that many people in the 1930s believed the Third Reich would be a bullwark against Stalin's Russia.............not quite how it worked out with the Third Reich and the USSR carving Poland and the Baltic States up between them, German Panzers runing on Russian fuel during the invasion of France in 1940 and the Communist Party of Great Britain recieving instructions from Moscow to sabotage British industrial producion in response to Neville Chamberlain's declaration of War on the Third Reich.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer


Last edited by Adrian_Wainer on Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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Adrian_Wainer
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Posts: 255

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:06 am
Post subject: Re: Euro TUSK..............

If one was building a serious urban combat heavy AFV.

[1]Shift the power train to front

[2]dispense with the conventional turret

[3] develop univeral turret attachement

[4] have a selection of turrets for various missions

[5] have the turret unmanned and armour between turret and vehicle so that enemy can take out turret and vehicle will still be in good mechanical order and vehicle with disabled turret can make a safe evacuation to safe area

Best Regards
Adrian Wainer
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Euro TUSK..............

- Adrian_Wainer
If one was building a serious urban combat heavy AFV.

[1]Shift the power train to front

[2]dispense with the conventional turret

[3] develop univeral turret attachement

[4] have a selection of turrets for various missions

[5] have the turret unmanned and armour between turret and vehicle so that enemy can take out turret and vehicle will still be in good mechanical order and vehicle with disabled turret can make a safe evacuation to safe area

Best Regards
Adrian Wainer


We had this debate probably 3 yrs ago during the last Palestinian Intafadeh (sp?). There were plenty of news pictures of Israeli M113's, Centurion and T55-family urban mechanized vehicles. And kids throwing rocks or blowing up Merkavas with 1 ton IEDs. The M113 armoured OPs have a veritable cylindirical lighthouse cupola with lots of observation windows.
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buglerbilly
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Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Euro TUSK..............

It would not surprize me if these enhanced Leopard 2 and LeClerc were put together with an eye to possible export opportunities to the People's Republic of China.

I will not make further comment on that issue, suffice to say that many people in the 1930s believed the Third Reich would be a bullwark against Stalin's Russia.............not quite how it worked out with the Third Reich and the USSR carving Poland and the Baltic States up between them, German Panzers runing on Russian fuel during the invasion of France in 1940 and the Communist Party of Great Britain recieving instructions from Moscow to sabotage British industrial producion in response to Neville Chamberlain's declaration of War on the Third Reich.


You COMPLETELY lost me there pal! Shocked

I fail to see what any of that has to do with MBT's modified for combat in Urban Terrain................ ???

Regards,

BUG
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Adrian_Wainer
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Joined: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:56 am
Post subject: Re: Euro TUSK..............

BUG wrote

You COMPLETELY lost me there pal!

I fail to see what any of that has to do with MBT's modified for combat in Urban Terrain................ ???

Regards,

BUG


well about as much as what you have written below:



Firstly Germany with their Leopard 2 PSO (PSO = Peace Support Operations! Some0one had a sense of humour here, black humour but humour nevertheless! )


Best Regards
Adrian Wainer
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buglerbilly
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Posts: 147

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:28 am
Post subject: Re: Euro TUSK..............

well about as much as what you have written below:


Well if you don't see any humour in that statement "written below" obviously our measures of humour differ.

Quasi-political statements about unconnected historical data strike me as being SO far removed, as to be almost irrelevant to each other.

NOT wishing to bore the pants off the rest of the participants here, this discussion is forthwith terminated as far as I am concerned.

Regards,

BUG
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